Topic: Real honest Money - page 4. (Read 6849 times)

exactly, who holds the coin is the dominant decider in a trade. and has more control of the price. its not like buyers can just shout out random amounts and a bitcoin holder hands it over without question.. miners wont hand it over unless its a price their willing to hand it over for..



coindesk also said citizens of bolivia and citizens of china cannot touch bitcoins by law... they kind of have half a story, but its not accurate..

the price if high electric and paying excess delivery and import tax makes the high end of $600, especially those small people that cant afford multiple rigs.. but those in group buys and area's of cheap electric, running farms (the majority of hash power and receivers of the biggest slices of bitcoin pie. have costs closer to $500.. but as i said multiple times.. its not exactly $500, it does vary.

speculators (actual smart people who like to hype up the price for profit) always try to use high valuations, not low valuations. so for the 5th time

true value is ROUGHLY $500 (as thats production cost on average(cheapest cost to mine)) anything above that is speculation, based on profiteering and other varying factors.. which on average for the last 4 years has been around 20% above production costs..

in short bitcoin is backed by 80% POW(production cost) 20% speculation.

but comparing it to gold true value and spot..
1920's bank notes gold value and fee's charges, taxes..

everyone just ignores the variable, and says its backed by the main measurement.. thus banknotes backed by gold(ignoring fee's and tax) decades ago, now backed by minimum wage(ignoring fee's and tax) bitcoin backed by POW(ignoring speculation)

cha ching.. this guy is atleast trying to peel away the orange skin.. now ask why would someone be willing to sell at $600 and not $2..... oh yea, cos it cost him $500 to make the coin and he wants $100 profit to cover his lifestyle (2 days wage).

thus he is NOT willing to sell for less than $500 today.. but would prefer $100,000, but agree's on somewhere in the $500-$650 range as thats what buyers are offering, and it still means he is making profit.

buyers are not willing to pay $100,000... but would prefer to pay 1c, but agree's to pay somewhere around the $500-$650 range as thats what sellers are offering..

thus the speculation is $500 and above

the bitcoin price is not some random number based on a dream or hope. there is actual financial decisions being made

and most miners are on the similar (i never said exact) cost/profiting mindset. so yea you will see some variance and volatility. but you will see alot of reluctance for anyone to sell for less then $500 right now.. so thats where speculation comes in. somewhere between $500 cost average for miners.. and the moon. most buyers are accepting $600-$650 at the moment.. but not yet willing to pay up to the moon for a bitcoin..

when you start to realise that those who hold bitcoin are not stupid enough to actually be willing to sell for $10, you'll realise that bitcoin wont fall to $10(on a permanent bases).. there would be too much resistance. the most you would expect from a intentional price dump from a large whale trying to sell at a loss INTENTIONALLY, is a small time period before it averages back to above $500..

for the thousands of miners that are not stupid, to sell for a loss, there maybe 1 idiot intentionally trying to crash the price.... but thats his loss.

it makes me laugh when people think that prices and value are just random numbers based off nothing

oh crap.  now i just realized that!  i guess we were just confused by what a bitcoin block chain really is?

Sorry to throw water on the fire here but Bitcoin is backed by SHA256 encryption.

How can PoS work if towards the end everyone has his own coin to stake in. Hind OP (at least that is the conclusion i came to).

PoW works.  PoS works even better.  Because work is not the issue, but stake in Bitcoin (PeerCoin) 

I don't think he was implying the value strictly comes from how much it costs to obtain it rather than just adding to the novel that Bitcoins concept has a superior logic than fiat when it comes to trading.

A bitcoin sells for $600 when someone is willing to trade $600 for 1 BTC and someone with 1 BTC is will to trade it for $600. It is a value agreement, not a direct correlation between how much it cost in energy to create it.

Its worth whatever the market wants to pay at the time being.  Its priced like any other commodity.  But the price is volatile because there isn't a historic demand.  The only business that needs bit coins are dealers like bit pay/ coin base & exchanges

another non miner that thinks bitcoins are worth pennies but only sold for $640 due to dreams and hopes and nothing more...

w currency "backed by" means "convertible to"

nicetry is correct.  gold & bitcoin price is speculative

it makes me laugh that you think you know what "backed by" means yet you have no hard facts, just your opinion to back up your theory.
try looking at some charts now and again, see the trends, try using a calculator and do some maths.. dont just reply based on an opinion your limited imagination dreamt up.

hell people have even made calculators to work out mining profitabilty.. just to save you some time..

your supply and demand theory is high school level stuff. or as i prefer, the analogy of an orange. your theory is just the outer skin, yea you can hold it you can show people it, and thy will think thats all it consists of.. but you have not peeled away the skin and looked or felt the segments inside, the truly juicy and important things that make an orange, an orange.

retarded logic.  So your goal of selling BTC would always dependent on electricity and time regardless of how much you spent to buy the miner?  How do you even price your time?  This is just retarded thinking.  I'm not even to bother to argue with you anymore.  And you keep mentioning this $500-600 cost to produce BTC.  Are you saying your time and electricity cost that much to produce each coin?  

And I'm not going to even delve into your convoluted/nonsensical logic.  

Simply put, the market for a coin does not care how much you put into producing the coins.   And if you want to price your coin differently from the market price, the market is not going to care because either you will be 1. selling your coins way below market price.  2. fail to sell your coins because you are pricing them too high.

Simplest test to prove you and Manfred wrong is that these other PoW coins, aside from BTC (since demand is fairly high for BTC), is that these coins going to drop in value regardless of electricity cost it took to mine them.  These coins are going to drop in value because there is too much supply and not enough demand.  

And no, i'm not saying gold is backed by anything.  Gold price is determined by supply/demand like everything is in a capitalist market.  Learn some economics please.   There is no "backing" unless someone guarantees a preset exchange rate to enable you convert two commodities/currencies back and forth.

And I just love your 20% speculation part of your argument, franky, you want other people to come up with statistics yet you are just making statistics up.  Rofl. 

Gold 50 years means it was on the gold standard, read my post again, if it's gold standard, what the hell does speculative and spot price have to do with Dollar / Gold exchange rate?  Stop making up stuff

It would not be correct to say the ASICs are producing coins more efficiently. The Bitcoin protocol is setup so that the network can generate, on average one block per 10 minute period.

It would be more appropriate to say that ASICs can make SHA-256 calculations more efficiently then what CPUs and GPUs can.

back in the day of GPU, people were still paying $300 per GPU, couple hundred per motherboard etc, and setting up GPU farms..
now with more people mining although hash per penny/cent is cheaper, the amount of miners counteract you idea as instead of (example number only) 25 people mining gpu's getting 1btc each. now there are 10,000 people getting dust amounts each. so even if their rig cost $200 now and equivalent to 50 GPU's.. its meaningless as they have to share a 25btc reward with 10,000 people.. thus needing to buy many rigs to try getting back to owning 1BTC a block, or collectively hoarding coins to get a higher price to cover their production costs.


miners a couple months ago had a $400 cost per coin.. they refused to sell, for less then the $400-$450.. and slowly the price started to increase because their hoarding attempt caused demand. then the miners that shut off their rigs at $400 turned them back on.. now due to more miners again, the costs are now $500+ which is a safe cost vs profit. if mining costs get to $600 and any hoarding attempt has not happened. then they will try to cause a price rise to ensure profit..

its a chain reaction.. but miners always try to keep some speculative buffer, after all they need some speculation ontop of costs.. as no one wants to work for no profit long term.. a day, week is acceptable. this is why you will see the occasional panic traders trying to push prices down below costs, but it never lasts long

Aren't the ASIC's producing coins much more efficient than the inefficient graphic cards? Miners can sell at a much lower price.

clever man.. read my posts again... gold 50 years ago i said.. and now minimum wage..

price of bitcoin isnt driving production costs.. its production costs driving th price. because miners do not sell for a loss based on production cost not based on the changes of rigs costs..

for instance i have been running the same rig for 2 years.. whether it was priced at 60btc 2 years ago or 1btc today for the same gighash.. i dont change my goal sell price dependent on the rig cost.. i sell my coin dependent on my electric and time (production costs)+spot(profit)

your trying to say that gold is not backed by the production cost+spot but gold is backed by dollars. because dollars pay for the excavator which then digs out the gold!

so if an excavator costs $50k 2 months ago, and now advertised for $40k, no one in their right mind would sell 20% cheaper based on mining equipment price changes..

yes part of my production cost is the initial outlay of the rig) but has nothing to do with me changing my sell price if a rig producer changes their price day/weekly.. as thats irrelevant..

only when a person BUYS a rig, does that become part of production costs.

again if i buy a rig today, and suddenly the manufacturer has a half price promotion tomorrow due to a bitcoin value change. im not going to reduce my sell price.. purely based on a manufacturers dailyt price change..

if production costs is $500 im selling for above $500 no lower, no matter what promotions or rig costs changes happen hours/days later


im not saying that the speculation part will make some panicers sell at a loss, but on average the price if you actually looked at a chart, always evens out, to at or above mining cost, yes there are pumps and dumps, spikes and crashes, but they always recover to atlast mining cost+ levels..

take for instance november-december.. that was a spike 300% above mining costs. due to the "china wanna own the planet" positive speculation then it crashed to $600 due to china "not allowed to own it" negative speculation news, and then down to $400 mtgox.. but then it held.. ask yourself why wasnt bitcoin at $10 in march!!!!

because true value was just shy of $400, and speculation averaged about $50 ontop.. today costs is a little above $500 and speculation (postive attitude) gives it atleast $120 speculation