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Topic: Real money vs debt, and the value of bitcoin. (Mitchell-Innes credit theory) - page 3. (Read 7058 times)

sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
Organized violence (complicity of priests and militant chieftains - aka patriarchy and state) was established 10'000 years ago. That startet collectivism, market, money etc. and ended the anarchy, the self-sufficiency of mankind.

Money originates from the problems presented by direct exchange, as I already showed here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3203857. Although a private group can partially control it, money originates from the market.

You are 'showing' science fiction. Visit the self-sufficient, stateless communities in the rainforest and ask about money.
No tax - no money (contract debt), which is a derivative of the tax (enforced debt), which is a derivative of the weapon.

The communities to which you refer hardly have any need for money. As I showed before (please read this: http://omniequivalence.com/money-as-multiequivalence/), money arises from a concrete need, namely to make possible for different owners of different commodities to exchange them no matter in which configuration (one situation in which money has historically arisen was in exchanges between different communities).

Yes, of course do the stateless communities not have any need for money. This need arises as soon as the communities are being confiscated by militarists and priests (aka the state mafia) and enforced to pay tax (protection money).

Patriarchy = state mafia, citizens (protection money paying slaves), business, markets, organized violence.
Anarchy = self-sufficiency of humans

Please consider the following problem.

Quote
Let us imagine three owners A, B, and C of commodities x, y, and z, respectively, of whom A wants y, B wants z, and C wants x.

How would you make that exchange possible?
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
Okay zarathustra, I'm going to play along.
Lets say there is no military or police to protect people's property, no foreign threat and everyone has a cow, a bull, a pair of chicken and seeds to start off their self sufficient lives.
What happens next.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Organized violence (complicity of priests and militant chieftains - aka patriarchy and state) was established 10'000 years ago. That startet collectivism, market, money etc. and ended the anarchy, the self-sufficiency of mankind.

Money originates from the problems presented by direct exchange, as I already showed here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3203857. Although a private group can partially control it, money originates from the market.

You are 'showing' science fiction. Visit the self-sufficient, stateless communities in the rainforest and ask about money.
No tax - no money (contract debt), which is a derivative of the tax (enforced debt), which is a derivative of the weapon.

The communities to which you refer hardly have any need for money. As I showed before (please read this: http://omniequivalence.com/money-as-multiequivalence/), money arises from a concrete need, namely to make possible for different owners of different commodities to exchange them no matter in which configuration (one situation in which money has historically arisen was in exchanges between different communities).

Yes, of course do the stateless communities not have any need for money. This need arises as soon as the communities are being confiscated by militarists and priests (aka the state mafia) and enforced to pay tax (protection money).

Patriarchy = state mafia, citizens (protection money paying slaves), business, markets, organized violence.
Anarchy = self-sufficiency of humans
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
People had the need to exchange different products, but to reach that goal, they must find something that everyone want and accept as payment medium, so grain has been used as money for some time. But grain can not hold value for a long time, finally it is fixed on gold. Fiat money's value mostly come from the government's power, but ironically the government is not the beneficiary of fiat money

No, it is the beneficiary of inflation (the expression "fiat money" is not a good one given its myriad of different meanings).
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
People had the need to exchange different products, but to reach that goal, they must find something that everyone want and accept as payment medium, so grain has been used as money for some time. But grain can not hold value for a long time, finally it is fixed on gold. Fiat money's value mostly come from the government's power, but ironically the government is not the beneficiary of fiat money
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
Organized violence (complicity of priests and militant chieftains - aka patriarchy and state) was established 10'000 years ago. That startet collectivism, market, money etc. and ended the anarchy, the self-sufficiency of mankind.

Money originates from the problems presented by direct exchange, as I already showed here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3203857. Although a private group can partially control it, money originates from the market.

You are 'showing' science fiction. Visit the self-sufficient, stateless communities in the rainforest and ask about money.
No tax - no money (contract debt), which is a derivative of the tax (enforced debt), which is a derivative of the weapon.

The communities to which you refer hardly have any need for money. As I showed before (please read this: http://omniequivalence.com/money-as-multiequivalence/), money arises from a concrete need, namely to make possible for different owners of different commodities to exchange them no matter in which configuration (one situation in which money has historically arisen was in exchanges between different communities).

Although I understand your passionate revolt against present oppression, you must be careful to avoid generalizing your particular predicament to all historical times. Trying to solve the problems of society by eliminating money is like trying to solve your problems by shooting your own head (no doubt it would have some effectiveness, but I suspect this is not exactly what we want).
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
Organized violence (complicity of priests and militant chieftains - aka patriarchy and state) was established 10'000 years ago. That startet collectivism, market, money etc. and ended the anarchy, the self-sufficiency of mankind.

Money originates from the problems presented by direct exchange, as I already showed here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3203857. Although a private group can partially control it, money originates from the market.

You are 'showing' science fiction. Visit the self-sufficient, stateless communities in the rainforest and ask about money.
No tax - no money (contract debt), which is a derivative of the tax (enforced debt), which is a derivative of the weapon.
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
You are just defining yourself as being right.

You must be more specific.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
You are just defining yourself as being right.
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
Owing labor is just owing the exchange value of the expected product of that labor. In today's labor market, this gets obscured by the standard labor-time interval. However, that interval merely standardizes the time required in producing a monetary value: once you consistently don't deliver in time, you get fired.

In feudal times, lords had an obligation to provide their own military service, and that of a set number of their serfs, when called upon by the King.
It wasn't until much later that they had the option of providing money instead, to buy themselves out of that service.
The debt of labour came first, the monetary equivalent much later.

You are mistaking the concrete form in which the King accepted its payment with the absence of its monetary expression (even if we both know the monetary value of your debt with me, I can choose not to accept its payment with money). If that monetary expression were absent, then this "owing" was not a debt (in the sense of owing the monetary value of something rather than just its concrete objectivity).
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Owing labor is just owing the exchange value of the expected product of that labor. In today's labor market, this gets obscured by the standard labor-time interval. However, that interval merely standardizes the time required in producing a monetary value: once you consistently don't deliver in time, you get fired.

In feudal times, lords had an obligation to provide their own military service, and that of a set number of their serfs, when called upon by the King.
It wasn't until much later that they had the option of providing money instead, to buy themselves out of that service.
The debt of labour came first, the monetary equivalent much later.

Indeed you could say that the same is true now of any country with compulsory national service. You owe a debt of labour, which does not have a monetary equivalent buy-out option.
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
I said they could not be owed in exchange for labor without having an independently expressible exchange value. The concept of debt (owing something to someone) refers to monetary value, which requires its independent expression. However, if you take the word "owing" as just meaning I must give you the precise object for which you already gave me another object in exchange (rather than any other object having the same exchange value - or money), then you can apply that word to barter.

I disagree.
People can owe a debt of labour/service, and have done so throughout history.

Owing labor is just owing the exchange value of the expected product of that labor. In today's labor market, this gets obscured by the standard labor-time interval. However, that interval merely standardizes the time required in producing a monetary value: once you consistently don't deliver that value in time, you get fired.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
I said they could not be owed in exchange for labor without having an independently expressible exchange value. The concept of debt (owing something to someone) refers to monetary value, which requires its independent expression. However, if you take the word "owing" as just meaning I must give you the precise object for which you already gave me another object in exchange (rather than any other object having the same exchange value - or money), then you can apply that word to barter.

I disagree.
People can owe a debt of labour/service, and have done so throughout history.
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
As I already pointed out, if accommodation and food had no independently expressible exchange value, then they could not be owed in exchange for labor. This independently expressible exchange value requires money. You are mistaking the expression of a monetary value in accommodation and food with the absence of any concept of money.

You seem to suggest that a barter economy could not exist without money, which is wrong.
I can agree to mow your lawn for a week if you fix my car.
We need to agree that the value obtained by each of us is relatively even, but we don't need to be able to express that value in monetary terms.

By definition, barter is direct, non-monetary exchange.

You said:
a) if accommodation and food had no independently expressible exchange value, then they could not be owed in exchange for labor
b) This independently expressible exchange value requires money

You have therefore said that accommodation and food cannot be owned in exchange for labour.
But that is clearly possible in a barter economy.

I said they could not be owed in exchange for labor without having an independently expressible exchange value. The concept of debt (owing something to someone) refers to monetary value, which requires its independent expression. However, if you take the word "owing" as just meaning I must give you the precise object for which you already gave me another object in exchange (rather than any other object having the same exchange value - or money), then you can apply that word to barter.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
As I already pointed out, if accommodation and food had no independently expressible exchange value, then they could not be owed in exchange for labor. This independently expressible exchange value requires money. You are mistaking the expression of a monetary value in accommodation and food with the absence of any concept of money.

You seem to suggest that a barter economy could not exist without money, which is wrong.
I can agree to mow your lawn for a week if you fix my car.
We need to agree that the value obtained by each of us is relatively even, but we don't need to be able to express that value in monetary terms.

By definition, barter is direct, non-monetary exchange.

You said:
a) if accommodation and food had no independently expressible exchange value, then they could not be owed in exchange for labor
b) This independently expressible exchange value requires money

You have therefore said that accommodation and food cannot be owned in exchange for labour.
But that is clearly possible in a barter economy.
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
As I already pointed out, if accommodation and food had no independently expressible exchange value, then they could not be owed in exchange for labor. This independently expressible exchange value requires money. You are mistaking the expression of a monetary value in accommodation and food with the absence of any concept of money.

You seem to suggest that a barter economy could not exist without money, which is wrong.
I can agree to mow your lawn for a week if you fix my car.
We need to agree that the value obtained by each of us is relatively even, but we don't need to be able to express that value in monetary terms.

By definition, barter is direct, non-monetary exchange.
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
Organized violence (complicity of priests and militant chieftains - aka patriarchy and state) was established 10'000 years ago. That startet collectivism, market, money etc. and ended the anarchy, the self-sufficiency of mankind.

Money originates from the problems presented by direct exchange, as I already showed here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3203857. Although a private group can partially control it, money originates from the market.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
As I already pointed out, if accommodation and food had no independently expressible exchange value, then they could not be owed in exchange for labor. This independently expressible exchange value requires money. You are mistaking the expression of a monetary value in accommodation and food with the absence of any concept of money.

You seem to suggest that a barter economy could not exist without money, which is wrong.
I can agree to mow your lawn for a week if you fix my car.
We need to agree that the value obtained by each of us is relatively even, but we don't need to be able to express that value in monetary terms.
sr. member
Activity: 242
Merit: 250
All the alt-coins also have similar properties as bitcoin. What is it about bitcoin that sets it apart from the clones and makes it so much more valuable?

First-mover status. 99.9% of the merchants which accept cryptocurrency will take bitcoins and not alt-coins. The public do not want to see dozens of alt-coins which are a confusing duplication. So, basically, the alt-coins are not recognized as currency outside the cryptographic community.

Precisely. What makes bitcoin so much more valuable is the fact that merchants trust them enough to accept them, and more importantly that there is already a big market for them on (trusted) exchanges. My point is that the value of bitcoin comes mostly from the trust that people have in the market. Not so much its intrinsic properties (or the various alt-coins would be of equal value).

Let me give you an example to evidence your mistake: do people board a plane because of its ability to fly or because of their trust on that ability?

Although people use a form of money because they trust it, they can only trust it because of its monetary properties. Trust needs justification, which ultimately comes from the properties of its object. Because people trust the monetary properties of an object, they collectively decide to use it as money, which makes it so. However, this would not be possible (or would result in a plane crash) if the same object did not have those properties in the first place.

Unfortunately, we are about to see an instance of such a misplaced monetary trust.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1004
You are putting the cart before the horse. Money is a product substitute to make commerce easier. Those immovable stones enabled single product transactions by representing a product on one side of the exchange. With many food products it is rare to find a buyer with the exact item the seller needs. That is why the concept of money developed - to resolve the product matching problem.

As the Graeber book explains, the product matching problem only exists in an economist's imagination. A much better explanation for why money was developed is that it solves the problem of a state procuring supplies for its army. It works like this: if a state has an army, it also needs to feed and clothe that army. Without a currency, it would require an additional army just to procure the food and clothes for the first army. To solve this problem, the King issues coins to its soldiers, and then mandates that every peasant pays one coin back to the King as a tax. Through such a coinage, the King has created the workforce needed to supply food and clothes for his Army.

Money originates from social interaction: it does not originate individually, within the head of a king, no matter how clever.

No, money originates from organized violence. Organized violence (state and church, militarism and patriarchal religion) indebted the people with a tax. This started the economy, the market and the money, which is a derivative of owed taxes. No state - no market - no collectivism and instead of it we find the self-sufficient communities. These are the historic facts. A barter economy beyond the state (organized violence) is Science Fiction. In the rainforest, where organized violence (state and church) is absent, you won't find a market/economy. You'll find self-sufficient communities beyond any business.

Money is much older than the state or the church. Just do a little research.

No, it is not. Organized violence (complicity of priests and militant chieftains - aka patriarchy and state) was established 10'000 years ago. That startet collectivism, market, money etc. and ended the anarchy, the self-sufficiency of mankind.
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