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Topic: Recovery actions for stolen Bitcoin - page 2. (Read 10478 times)

legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005
December 15, 2013, 09:34:32 PM
#29
Yes when it's uncontested it's easy but what happens when more then one person shows up with the private key.

Well, then you have an actual dispute about a material fact, so you can't, for example, successfully file a motion for summary judgment and avoid trial.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
December 15, 2013, 09:31:38 PM
#28
Police have arrested bitcoin hackers, whether they can recover the stolen bitcoin will depend on a lot of factors, like whether they can recover the wallets with the stolen bitcoin and unencrypt them.

http://www.coindesk.com/fbi-proves-seizing-bitcoins-isnt-owning/

Regardless, bitcoin hackers/scammers are getting arrested or taken to court:

http://www.coindesk.com/german-police-detain-bitcoin-hackers/

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-scam-china-authorities/

http://www.coindesk.com/company-pay-1m-secretly-using-customer-computers-bitcoin-mining/

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-incubator-coinlab-2-4m-in-bitcoins/

Also, people can track stolen bitcoins and report the details to the authorities:

http://www.coindesk.com/sheep-marketplace-track-stolen-bitcoins/
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
December 15, 2013, 08:25:22 PM
#27
Yes when it's uncontested it's easy but what happens when more then one person shows up with the private key.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005
December 15, 2013, 09:31:52 AM
#26
This method is negated by any wallet stealer since both the thief and victim would have the private key. Given that info, how do you prove that you were ever the lawful owner of the BTC at that time? Only thing I can think of is maybe a receipt of some kind (exchange logs?) and that doesn't take into account the fact that the BTC could have been traded willingly off network by sending the private key to the buyer (or thief [I can know as a 3rd party{you can't either}]).

As I mentioned in my blog which started this discussion, proving original ownership of the privacy key will be difficult and certainly will be subject to a finding of fact in any litigation.
It's not just difficult it's likely impossible.  Please describe a scenario in which such proof is even civil court sufficient which is "by the preponderance of evidence".  You can probably forget the criminal aspect of "beyond any reasonable doubt" but if you are up to it you can describe that as well.

Preponderance is basically a 51% deal.  If it's more likely than not that you own the private key, you prevail on that standard.  So if you can actually produce the key, that would prove that you actually own it to any reasonable person, especially if you also, as you would, swear under oath that you are the rightful owner of that key.

Civil court cases quite often turn into "swearing contests" just like this, with one person saying one thing and the other side saying another, and the fact-finder deciding which of them is telling the truth.

But actually possessing the private key is a lot stronger than just saying you are the rightful owner of it.  There's no "beyond any reasonable doubt" in a civil case, which a recovery action would usually be.  The burden is preponderance of evidence, and actually producing the private key while the other side is incapable of doing so (since it doesn't own it) would shift the burden to the other side to prove you were not the rightful owner.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
December 15, 2013, 01:57:58 AM
#25
This method is negated by any wallet stealer since both the thief and victim would have the private key. Given that info, how do you prove that you were ever the lawful owner of the BTC at that time? Only thing I can think of is maybe a receipt of some kind (exchange logs?) and that doesn't take into account the fact that the BTC could have been traded willingly off network by sending the private key to the buyer (or thief [I can know as a 3rd party{you can't either}]).

As I mentioned in my blog which started this discussion, proving original ownership of the privacy key will be difficult and certainly will be subject to a finding of fact in any litigation.
It's not just difficult it's likely impossible.  Please describe a scenario in which such proof is even civil court sufficient which is "by the preponderance of evidence".  You can probably forget the criminal aspect of "beyond any reasonable doubt" but if you are up to it you can describe that as well.
newbie
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
December 14, 2013, 04:33:22 PM
#24
This method is negated by any wallet stealer since both the thief and victim would have the private key. Given that info, how do you prove that you were ever the lawful owner of the BTC at that time? Only thing I can think of is maybe a receipt of some kind (exchange logs?) and that doesn't take into account the fact that the BTC could have been traded willingly off network by sending the private key to the buyer (or thief [I can know as a 3rd party{you can't either}]).

As I mentioned in my blog which started this discussion, proving original ownership of the privacy key will be difficult and certainly will be subject to a finding of fact in any litigation.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 1217
December 14, 2013, 11:44:59 AM
#23
QUESTION FOR THE GROUP

If a paypal account, is used with 100% feedback on localbitcoins.com, then suddenly the paypal account owner claims "hacked" and reverses paypal monies for local BTC, what negligence is their on the part of the silly paypal account person who allows their account to be puppeted for two months??

Absolute BS. How can anyone claim this? Was this guy sleeping for 2 months? Can you give me the details of his Localbitcoins.com account?
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005
December 13, 2013, 06:54:16 PM
#22
...and that is what you supposed smart people who know law, need to figure out.  How do we have recourse against theft, yet protect our Constitutional rights to privacy.  Lawyers, do not swear an oath to the Constitution, so they are sideline players,from my perspective.

Utter bullshit.

Quote
41:1-1. Oath of allegiance; form
Every person who is or shall be required by law to give assurance of fidelity and attachment to the Government of this State shall take the following oath of allegiance:

"I, , do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of New Jersey, and that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same and to the Governments established in the United States and in this State, under the authority of the people So help me God."

Amended by L.1949, c. 21, p. 67, s. 1, eff. April 12, 1949; L.1971, c. 217, s. 6.

Almost all states have an oath in a similar form.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
American1973
December 13, 2013, 01:50:13 PM
#21
QUESTION FOR THE GROUP

If a paypal account, is used with 100% feedback on localbitcoins.com, then suddenly the paypal account owner claims "hacked" and reverses paypal monies for local BTC, what negligence is their on the part of the silly paypal account person who allows their account to be puppeted for two months??

The whole concept of identity, is the first thing that has been demolished.

...and that is what you supposed smart people who know law, need to figure out.  How do we have recourse against theft, yet protect our Constitutional rights to privacy.  Lawyers, do not swear an oath to the Constitution, so they are sideline players,from my perspective.

I think its hilarious when BTC is treated like toxic invisible waste by lawyers, haha, how long until lawyers accept BTC, and most important question will be: How will lawyers be taxed when they do accept BTC for payment?

Taxation is at the root of lawyering, paypal, and all money.  I guess we can start there.  BUT ALSO, the "tech stupid", who allow their paypal account to be zombified and puppeted for months, should also be made to suffer, for their ID is then wielded with ill intent, and they claim no connection to the man-in-the-middle.  Like, if my paypal account was hacked, I'd be on the phone to paypal that day, so how do these zombie accounts get so much time to steal,before they are identified??
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005
December 08, 2013, 07:35:02 AM
#20
What does sympathy have to do with legality?

Ask a jury.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
December 07, 2013, 05:55:14 AM
#19
What does sympathy have to do with legality?  The term legal possession implies a third party such as a government authorizing your right to it.  Bitcoin has no such thing therefore you can not possess bitcoin in a way that works with any current laws.  You can try to make it fit but it would be akin to trying to explain to a Native American the western concepts of land ownership.  You can only explain it with violence and force which then begets more violence and force in retaliation.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005
December 07, 2013, 02:54:17 AM
#18
Since you are a lawyer why don't you define legal possession and how that concept can be applied to bitcoin for starters.

It is certainly subject to debate. My argument would be that possession of the privacy key constitutes the ownership and right to access the value denoted in the blockchain ledger. That is the basic premise of Bitcoin, correct?
Really?  So if I post my private key here then everyone that sees it on this forum owns the btc in that address?  What about any btc that used to be there?  Do they somehow become past owners of that as well?

Actually deliberately posting it here would be an implicit invitation to add it to a wallet just to see what's in it.  For example, the "correct horse battery staple" brainwallet passphrase used as an example.  (Don't actually add it to a wallet because it is so constantly flooded with transactions that it can easily crash your client.)

Posting a private key with funds in it is basically yelling "Hey here's some money, and I'm leaving it here while I go away!"  That may make the inevitable thief still guilty of something, but good luck getting any sympathy from a jury.

If, however, someone obtained the private key illegally, such as with a keylogger or by finding the Post-It note where you left it under your desk, even if that is almost equally stupid, obviously they don't possess the BTC.  I assume OP meant by "possession" what is often meant legally by the term, that is, legitimate possession.  (Even a thief, though, is actually in "possession" of a stolen item and a drug dealer "possesses" illegal drugs even though the law recognizes no ownership right in such items.)
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
December 06, 2013, 07:10:12 PM
#17
Since you are a lawyer why don't you define legal possession and how that concept can be applied to bitcoin for starters.

It is certainly subject to debate. My argument would be that possession of the privacy key constitutes the ownership and right to access the value denoted in the blockchain ledger. That is the basic premise of Bitcoin, correct?

@ OP
Here was an interesting thought experiment are Bitcoin's virtual property? I think it is worth reading.

Many opinions expressed helped shape my understanding.
newbie
Activity: 16
Merit: 0
December 06, 2013, 06:31:43 PM
#16
Since you are a lawyer why don't you define legal possession and how that concept can be applied to bitcoin for starters.

It is certainly subject to debate. My argument would be that possession of the privacy key constitutes the ownership and right to access the value denoted in the blockchain ledger. That is the basic premise of Bitcoin, correct?

This method is negated by any wallet stealer since both the thief and victim would have the private key. Given that info, how do you prove that you were ever the lawful owner of the BTC at that time? Only thing I can think of is maybe a receipt of some kind (exchange logs?) and that doesn't take into account the fact that the BTC could have been traded willingly off network by sending the private key to the buyer (or thief [I can know as a 3rd party{you can't either}]).
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
December 06, 2013, 02:56:55 PM
#15
Since you are a lawyer why don't you define legal possession and how that concept can be applied to bitcoin for starters.

It is certainly subject to debate. My argument would be that possession of the privacy key constitutes the ownership and right to access the value denoted in the blockchain ledger. That is the basic premise of Bitcoin, correct?
Really?  So if I post my private key here then everyone that sees it on this forum owns the btc in that address?  What about any btc that used to be there?  Do they somehow become past owners of that as well?
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 1217
December 06, 2013, 10:44:35 AM
#14
The thief is probably in a different country to you. Just because their laws may not necessarily stop them hacking into your computer (or maybe their law enforcement is too lazy to do something about it), doesn't mean the same applies in your country.

Then we can set up this service in some country where theft is illegal and thieves can be caught using whatever means. May be Saudi Arabia?

Hacking in to someone's computer is punishable everywhere. Correct me if I am wrong.  Grin
newbie
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
December 06, 2013, 10:39:45 AM
#13
Since you are a lawyer why don't you define legal possession and how that concept can be applied to bitcoin for starters.

It is certainly subject to debate. My argument would be that possession of the privacy key constitutes the ownership and right to access the value denoted in the blockchain ledger. That is the basic premise of Bitcoin, correct?
newbie
Activity: 35
Merit: 0
December 06, 2013, 10:15:24 AM
#12
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
December 06, 2013, 04:37:58 AM
#11

If stealing the coins are not illegal, then getting them back is also not illegal. This hacking / stealing issue is scaring a way a lot of noobs from Bitcoin. In fact, I'd say that if not for the thieves, the market cap of BTC could have easily crossed 30 billion USD by now.

The thief is probably in a different country to you. Just because their laws may not necessarily stop them hacking into your computer (or maybe their law enforcement is too lazy to do something about it), doesn't mean the same applies in your country.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1005
December 06, 2013, 01:27:50 AM
#10
Some throwaway thoughts on the replevin issue.  I'm not sure that's the appropriate remedy, particularly because of the inequity to innocent good faith purchasers.  Imagine this:  thief scams 10 BTC a couple years ago when it was worth much less.  Buys a number of trivial items for 1 BTC each.  Now, someone actually sleuths out who the thief is and where the money went.  It was to these ten merchants for a variety of $5 items.  The 1 BTC is worth $1,000 now.  To return that BTC (and the merchant probably could not return the actual BTC because that particular BTC is probably long-spent), the merchant would have to take a $995 bath.  Additionally, replevin requires the return of a specific item.  The merchant probably doesn't have this specific item any more.  Replevin can't require you to "return" an item you don't have, or substitute an item that just happens to be like it.

Additionally, the whole idea of boycotting particular BTC (basically destroying its value forever) would be considered breaking the protocol.  If there is something courts should not be encouraged to do, it is that.  Additionally, just as a matter of practicality, there are current technical proposals (specifically BIP 0032) that would render this kind of sleuthing much more difficult.  One pool (Eligius run by Luke-Jr) has recently started discouraging and de-prioritizing the kind of address reuse that would make going after merchants practical.  

Now, I agree that obviously, the thief is responsible to return the BTC, but I can't see a judgment ordering return in the form of a cryptocurrency.  How would the court administer such a thing and decide between conflicting claims when scammer claims he shipped and judgment creditor claims he didn't?  Expert testimony about BTC?  Costs money.  Lots of it.  Probably more than it's worth.

I think the plaintiff would be entitled to a money judgment in the form of the original money value of the BTC, plus something in the form of incidental and consequential damages (in a contract action), punitive damages if the conduct was particularly to be discouraged (and some other tort was involved), and otherwise.  Oh, and legal fees.  Because until you're getting into the million dollar territory, prosecuting the first few cases like this is going to be an uphill slog and require explaining highly technical subjects to 70 year old judges.

An action in the nature of trover also makes some sense, i.e. a verdict for the value of the lost commodity.  While arguably, BTC is identifiable rather than purely fungible, you could say that about actual cash, too.  It has serial numbers.  There's even a searchable database, as an example, of the serial numbers in the D.B. Cooper heist.  Money may be generally fungible, but in some cases, it can be identified as being particular stolen money.

While I understand why plaintiffs would desire to be able to go after merchants (since thieves are often judgment proof losers), especially for the current value of BTC they lost in scams which has since vastly appreciated in value, it would be grossly inequitable to the merchants, actual enforcement would be so disastrous to merchants that unless miners changed the protocol to make such a regime unenforceable (BIP 0032 would be a nice start), they would flee the market, and it would basically amount to a windfall for the plaintiffs.
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