Topic: Requesting donations for a cause - page 2. (Read 4203 times)

Ok. Here are some mixing instructions I found:




I actually can't figure out what the actual dosage is here because I have no idea how the original 28% concentration was calculated. g/100 ml? oz/fl.oz? Either way, you can see that even this 28% solution has been already diluted with distilled water. The total volume of that bottle is supposedly 3 oz, but the website has a picture for a 5 oz bottle with the same label. It is clear these people do not know what they are doing.

Anyway:
1) 2.75 oz Sodium Chlorite 28% + 0.25 oz H2O -> 3 oz Sodium Chlorite 25.66%

2) One drop Sodium Chlorite 25.66% + Five drops Citric Acid 10% -> .3 ml sodium chlorite 4.2%
-a drop is I guess .05 ml.

3) Stir and let sit for 3 minutes.
- Maybe someone more up on their chemistry can help out here, but this step is probably generating sodium citrate and chlorous acid. The chlorous acid is then dissociating into whatever, none of these compounds look stable to me. Some of the citric acid is perhaps reducing the sodium chlorite to yield chlorine dioxide. You let it sit for 3 minutes... so the majority of this gas will leach into the air.

4) Solubility of chlorine dioxide is 8 grams per liter. Since we have .0003 liters of solution, there could be a max 2.4 mg of chlorine dioxide.
-The concentration will be less since this is not occurring in a closed container.

5) You then dilute this further with 1/3 a glass of water. A glass is about 250 ml.

6) So, if no reactions had occured we would now have about 85 ml of 0.015% sodium chlorite solution. In reality it will be a mixture of sodium chlorite, sodium citrate, chlorine dioxide, hydrochloric acid, and chloric acid. Chlorine dioxide will vaporize. The others will either slowly dissociate into oxygen and chlorine gas or remain until the stuff is drunk. At this point they will react with various things in your GI tract. I don't think any of this will make it out of there.


tl/dr: 85 ml of less than 0.015% sodium chlorite solution, but we don't know what % means

This is what I am talking about. You have no data. You have a logical-sounding narrative. So what? Anyone can make one up to support anything. Finding some anecdotes and literature to go along isn't difficult either. This is the old way of thinking. People only need to use this way when they don't have the tools necessary to actually test their ideas in the real world.

You are at... Construct hypothesis:

And another thing:

This next link is about Vit C, not MMS, but the quotes are just as relevant in a Bitcoin sense:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0GC9Fq8lfg   (42:27 thu 43:52 for those who don't have time to plough through the whole thing).

I really wish people could see the Bitcoin case for freedom here instead of looking at MMS, but since that's where it's heading and the original request has been revoked (not forgetting that I never at any stage asked for donations for myself, but for a competitor to us, and that hopefully a trusted person (such as a mod) could be the holder of any funds to remove any accusation of a scam, which came about anyhow.

Your body needs oxidisers (or oxidizers for our american friends).
You body need ant-oxidants too.

Your body needs Sodium
Your body needs Potassium

This list could go on, but the point being that it's not what it is, but the dose and the combination.  i.e. if you want to take sodium then take potassium with it, in the right ratios, and don't blame one of them for causing the problem alone.  It's an old over used saying, but you can die from too much water (drinking I mean - not just drowning).  Does that make it a toxin?

If you take sodium chlorite and an acid, there is chlorine dioxide (which can save your life if you have pneumonia or something - but I'm not advocating snorting it or breathing it daily or anything like that).  My AZT reference is it's a nasty drug, and MMS will neutralise the drug (also the HIV symptoms go away, but yay AZT!  I know people personally with HIV, and they are symptomless - really!).  Anyhow I'm drifting from my point.  SC + Acid creates Acified Sodium Chlorite.  Now if you think about that in chemical terms (and I'd like to refer you to the document "3 years of HCl Therapy" which is about 80 years old.  If you put an acid like HCl, or give blood, or remove blood, then your immune system goes "WFT?" and kicks into action.  This is where I disagree with Humble, but tend to keep my mouth shut.  I *know* it works in many many cases, but I never make claims, because the reason I think it works is different than what most other people think.  If you drink Chlorine dioxide, the food in your belly will neutralise it in about 15 seconds.  If you don't believe me but want to test this without putting anyones life at risk, then acify some sodium chlorite (thereby making chlorine dioxide gas, which gives colour to the liquid) then put some food (eg. a piece of pizza in there) and you'll see with your eyes the gas is gone.  Now, if you consider that your immune system spends about 60% of it's time cleaning up the junk you eat, and the air that you breathe, and something can a) clean up the food and/or b) stimulate the immune system by creating an imbalance by whatever means, then the immune system is free to get on with other chores, like fighting whatever condition ails you, so you get a double bonus.

Add in some vitamin C, Sodium Thiosulphate or whatever and you have your anti-oxidants (exception: Vit C can conditionally be a pro-oxidant, depending on quantity and situation).

Um, any claim that specific people have died from MMS (or anything else for that matter) is anecdotal. What do you want, a double-blind autopsy? Sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide are known to be toxic (PDF). Silvia Fink became violently ill immediately after ingesting these chemicals, and died the same day. That's got to be more than coincidence, don't you think?

Jim Humble, the creator of MMS, states openly that MMS consists of chlorine dioxide, which is produced by "activating" sodium chlorite. The method by which MMS is "activated" is very similar to the method used in industrial production of chlorine dioxide. It is not FUD to say that MMS produces chlorine dioxide. The guy who created it is the one saying it. Chlorine dioxide is known to be a highly poisonous gas (see the above link). Sodium chlorite is also poisonous. These substances are not diluted to safe levels either: Jim Humble recommends a 28% solution of sodium chlorite.

It is believed that more people have died from MMS, though I only mentioned the one death specifically because that's the only case I could find where there was hard evidence. Claims that other people have died from MMS are not unbelievable, given how toxic these substances are.

I wish I knew. Bullets and cars are not controlled substances only because they are not substances. I'm pretty sure they are controlled (in most countries), at least in the sense that a license is required to buy and/or use them. But industrial chemicals are not so tightly controlled, if they are controlled at all. That's just the kind of fucked-up world we live in, I guess.

Bitcoin Forums too difficult to fool — scammer goes elsewhere to scam.

So, I take it, you don't care about bitcoin and just came here to ask for money?
No doubt when/if you get any you will dissapear, whether you are genuine about this or not.

Ok. Point taken. I think you starting down a road that defines any sufficiently strong mixture of oxidizing agents as bleach. But if that is a technical term so be it. Photobleaching, etc.


I agree, but we should acknowledge that its (MMS) effectiveness and side effects have not been extensively studied. The important thing is that there is alot of background info suggesting it is not worth anyone's time to study it. People really should assume it is bad. That doesn't mean it cannot be used as a pharmaceutical in a certain manner. You keep claiming people are dying from taking it as advertised by the pseudoscience merchants. Please support this with something more than anecdotes or justify why the anecdotes are convincing to you. A couple assholes who don't dilute enough could ruin it for everyone, etc. *Note again I think using MMS is a retarded idea (at this point) and it would take very strong evidence to convince me otherwise.


I think this is FUD. More people would die if that was the case. What is your source for this?


Why is noone besides the FDA investigating the death's of the idiots drinking MMS then? Bullets are not a controlled substance, neither are cars. I don't advocate donating to this at all btw.

I said sodium chlorite is a bleach. "Bleach" is not one specific chemical, it is a type of cleaning agent that works by oxidation, and there are number of different chemicals that fall into this category: sodium hypochlorite, calcium hypochlorite, sodium hydroxide, hydogen peroxide, and yes, sodium chlorite.

Yes, AZT is normally used in conjunction with other drugs. But MMS is definitely not one of them.

It is not just another bullshit miracle cure, it's a highly toxic bullshit miracle cure. It is not just a dilute oxidising agent. When formulated according to the instructions, it produces a highly poisonous gas.

The reason nobody is getting arrested for it (yet) is because sodium chlorite, like so many other industrial chemicals, is not actually a controlled substance, and it's perfectly legal for anybody to sell it to anybody else for any reason. But it's looking like that's about to change. In fact, the reason for the OP's request for donations is to help another promoter of MMS in a legal battle with the FDA. I don't know all the details, but I gather that if the FDA gets their way, they'll ban MMS outright and put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

---

Neither vitamin C nor green tea are toxic industrial chemicals. I know of no attempt by the FDA or any other government agency to ban these (or the Codex Alimentarius, for that matter).

You won't be arrested for growing or selling your own vegetables; you just can't make outrageous claims about them that aren't supported by science. The concept of "adaptogens" is not recognised by modern medicine. You especially can't claim that deadly poisons are in fact healthy.

I agree that the FDA has too much power and people should be allowed to make dumb decisions. Maybe I just underestimate how dumb/lazy/busy people are when it comes to things outside their realm of expertise. I don't think that if we got rid of the FDA there would be widespread poisoning though.

But the FDA is like any government agency, there is a need for an organziation like the FDA, but it will only exist until someone creates an obviously superior alternative. The best thing you can do is develop a commercial alternative to the FDA. Investigate all the vitamins/drugs/literature out there to the best of your ability (start small) and publish your recommendations. Getting people to listen will require some kind of magic sauce. A blog/newsletter is not going to lend you credibility. Selling untested "drugs" won't either.

If I'd made the same appeal for assistance in defending Vitamin C or Green Tea, would the attacks have been as fierce?  Because they'll be next on the FDA hit list (well, with Codex Alimentarius there have already been some attempts).

I learnt this just this morning:  "FDA does not allow companies to include the word adaptogen as a 'functional claim'."  Police State here we come.  Soon we'll all have to be OpenMesh and TOR just to try to avoid getting arrested for growing our own vegetables or giving them to our neighbours(which is also something else being tried out right now!).

Also, if any salt is now "all natural" to the people who fall for this stuff, that umbrella is spreading. The only reason "all natural" makes sense is that the compound is compatible with at least some kind of life that produces it. Although I guess various immune cells release all sorts of oxidizing agents, so you could make the case for hydrogen peroxide, superoxide, etc being "all natural" in that sense. Anyway it is a retarded metric by which to judge something.

No sodium chlorite is not bleach. Bleach is sodium hypochlorite. Chlorate 3=oxygens, chlorite= 2 oxygens, hypochlorite= 1 oxygen.

Clinical trials fail due to side effects all the time because people are different from animals, people are better at reporting side effects than animals, animal trials often only assess short-term effects, and false positives. I think you misunderstood my position though. Experimental drugs are scary; I would never want to be in a position where it makes sense for me to take an "experimental" drug. That said, at least some testing was done on those rather than this retarded "it's all natural so it's safer" concept. I think we are in agreement on this.

I said to dilute the bleach. Dose matters, so does dosing regimen. Really, I hope I didn't come across as advocating curing your ills with bleach. I do not think this, or MMS, is a good idea or safe at all.

AZT inhibits things that interact with DNA, HIV reverse transcriptase moreso than other targets. It will still interfere mostly with dividing cells. I am not too familiar with how effective it really is, but last I heard HIV treatment was usually a cocktail of drugs.

Concentrated Bleach/MMS will indeed oxidize anything, but dividing or otherwise highly active cells will be most vulnerable to these stresses. It is possible that in the right concentrations it could preferentially kill off infected GI or respiratory tract cells leaving the normal cells to recover. I do not think that any positive effects are likely to outweigh the bad here.

I pretty much agree with you that AZT is very likely to be a superior drug to MMS. We can't say for sure because (afaik) all we have is anecdotal evidence regarding MMS, but MMS is likely either diluted so much that it does nothing or has horrible side effects that far outweigh any benefit. There are much better ideas out there to fund.

Honestly I know nothing about MMS other than it is one more bullshit "cure" for people to take and it is some kind of diluted oxidizing agent. If people are so obviously dying from it I would think the FBI/whoever could arrest those selling it and charge them with manslaughter and fraud. Why is this not happening?

What do you mean "instead"? Sodium chlorite is a bleach. That's actually its main use aside from industrial production of chlorine dioxide. I should point out that drinking bleach is not good for your health.

Experimental drugs are tested on animals to make sure there are no major side effects. Although not as safe as drugs tested on humans, they are still far safer than drinking bleach.

The effects of drinking bleach are well understood. They are not pretty.

If only. At least homoeopaths have the decency to dilute their poisons to safe (ie, non-existent) levels. I'll say it once more, just in case people aren't getting it: MMS IS A DEADLY POISON. DO NOT DRINK OR INHALE THIS SUBSTANCE IF YOU WANT TO LIVE.

They affect these processes in completely different ways. There is no similarity between AZT (which is a proven HIV treatment) and oxidising agents (which are not).

Problem: industrial bleach is pretty non-discriminatory in what it oxidises. It kills everything, not just cancer and viruses.

The promoters of MMS are killing unsuspecting people by telling them deadly poisons are actually miracle cures. Going after killers is waste of government money?

Probably because most psuedoscientists promote things that are mostly harmless, rather than industrial chemicals. Do you seriously not understand how dangerous MMS is? Literally every person who has taken MMS as directed has been seriously sickened, and at least one person has died as a direct result. THIS IS NOT JUST SOME HARMLESS NONSENSE. PEOPLE ARE DYING.

Well, I doubt this MMS works as advertised and consuming oxidizing agents is generally bad for you, I am sure the same people taking it will just be convinced by random miracle workers/author's to drink diluted bleach instead. People should think of it the exact same way they do drinking bleach, or taking any experimental drug. It might work, but no one knows, and it may kill you. On the other hand it may do nothing and just be a waste of your money. So don't do that, unless you have reason to be the experiment.


Actually, if you know what AZT does, how viruses propagate, and how cancer works, the comparison makes sense. DNA analogs will interfere with both processes, as will oxidizing agents.   With regards to MMS, I can think of many reasonable ways it could work. It could oxidize membrane proteins/lipids, thus interfering with viral shedding. It could oxidize viral coat proteins, thus interfering with viral transfer. It could damage cells, leading to a TH2 mediated immune response and sensitization to viral/cancer proteins you were formally non-allergic to.

The thing is that there is no evidence that any of these possible benefits outweigh the risks. Normal chemo is like an assassin compared to how this would work.

The point stands though, that the same people taking this will also just go buy  Doc D's "Miracle bleach mixer" instead. It is a waste of money for the government to go after this. Perhaps these psuedoscientist's should be sued instead. I'm not sure why this does not happen more often.

You Win.  I revoked my appeal already.  Time is precious.

If you look at what MMS does with AZT for example on a chemical level (eg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thymidine) then you'd learn something.  I know some of these people personally and have experience of their dramas (eg. HIV symptoms disappearing entirely and can even get people to meet them personally if anyone was interested (note that unlike Humble I'm not claiming cure, I'm say lack of symptoms, which is an entirely different thing)), not just googling and finding unresolved sob stories.  How many people died of penicilin or too much water?.  I'm deeply disappointed in the Bitcoin community if this is representative of the average participant.  I wish responders to this thread well in whatever endeavours you choose, but I'm not looking for conflict here but co-operation.  Please though, learn predicate logic and how to take apart scientific fact from emotional appeal articles.  It's right there in the first responders post.

I back out now.  Case closed and will look elsewhere for support.

Regards
Paul

If you read the first post, I suggested that a moderator want to receive BTC, not myself.  This is a former competitor to Project GreenLife making a stand for his rights and all of ours.

I revoke my original request, I obviously misjudged the Bitcoin community.

Paul

According to MSDS for sodium chlorite, it is "Very hazardous in case of skin contact, of eye contact, of ingestion, of inhalation" and "Severe over-exposure can result in death." It further advises that in case of ingestion or inhalation, one should "Seek immediate medical attention." It also states that one must "Never add water to this product", which is exactly how MMS is supposed to be used (the reason one must never add water to sodium chlorite is because it produces deadly chlorine dioxide gas, which is in fact acidic, not alkaline).

This is not a chemistry debate (the fact that both sodium chlorite and chlorine dioxide are deadly poisons is not disputed by any chemist). This is not about rights. If it is about rights, it should be about the right of people not to be told that deadly poisons are in fact miracle cures for all manner of diseases. It's bad enough that there are people preying on the most desperate by selling miracle cures that don't work, but you're apparently not content to just take their money, you must take their lives as well, which is beyond reprehensible.

I can't speak for other users of Bitcoin, but when I use the term personal freedom, it does not include the freedom to kill people by telling them poisons are cures.