Topic: [RETURN] Announcing CoinReturn Financial IPO! - page 20. (Read 32167 times)

We didn't entirely take it as accusatory, more of ''hey the actions that you are taking give the appearance of, and could be, manipulation''
We appreciate the feedback/post in frank and concise terms, helps us figure things out more easily.

-tom and jeff

This is the bind we're having a hard time resolving. We know we aren't going to please everyone no matter what we do but we'd like to do what is a balance of best for coinreturn's health + its shareholders and is somewhat equitable to those who want to buy in. We're starting to back away from the idea of variable shares---at least unless there is some kind of formula basically set in stone. We'd really like user feedback/ideas on this (and your position...own/don't own/want to own/etc if possible). What we'd like to do for the time being is just stick to 100 shares a day and have this figured out well before the remaining 3000~ shares are gone. This would be until we can figure out with the community here and internally what the best course of action is overall. The 100 would be sold at different times and in different volumes but always at .006 regardless of market conditions. Sorry we've jumped around on this issue and had to walk back previous decisions but we're trying to manage this balancing act as best as possible.
So what do you guys think? we'd like to offer some more shares but obviously not offer them forever; put in x,000 shares on the first of the month for the next X months? put in x at .006, x at .008, x at .01, etc? put out 5,000 and be done for good? develop the formula? something else?

I will never get shares... I didnt want to spend more the 0.007 per share but not even 0.008 is possible. I just wanted to buy 100 shares a long time ago but failed, because i never got it busy man and so, i cant observe it every minute. Even if i go high with the price its no use.

I have to admit that i like the IPO way more because everyone can get shares...

a few updates:
- It looks like there is alot of natural demand picking up which is good of course. However we're still concerned there is a bit of manipulation going on, we noticed an interesting series of transactions:
April 23, 2014 18:16   Buy   0.014900   2   0.029800   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.012000   10   0.120000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.010000   5   0.050000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.010000   10   0.100000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.010000   12   0.120000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:15   Buy   0.010000   15   0.150000   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:14   Buy   0.009999   10   0.099990   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:14   Buy   0.009900   3   0.029700   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Buy   0.009850   12   0.118200   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Buy   0.009849   2   0.019698   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Sell   0.008600   169   1.453400   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Sell   0.008602   24   0.206448   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Sell   0.008603   5   0.043015   BTC
April 23, 2014 18:13   Sell   0.008604   2   0.017208   BTC
It's possible different buyers/sellers did these transactions minutes apart but trades on CS are usually spaced out a bit. Assuming it is one person then it appears someone cashed out ~1.75btc then bought in about .8btc in hopes of "pumping" the price. If so they stopped short (or created themselves:) of the next ask order which was something like 0.03 btc; likely in hopes someone would get in on the "frenzy". This is something you commonly see in lower volume coins on Cryptsy, Polonex, Coinmarket, etc
We're not really going to do much to address this since the market seems to be correcting it and our current share offerings should help to stabilize and offset such tactics.

- This takes us to our next update. We are going to sell shares at different times of the day instead of right after dividends are paid. We still don't have a formula that works in all the situations we can think of so in the mean time we are going to try to keep the amount of shares sold to 700 a week, much less if demand is low- slightly more if demand is really high. We will likely put these in as batches throughout the week and will always do 0.006 ask price, meaning its pretty much always going to be a market order---the shares go for whatever bids are in.

- Lastly, we've put a small amount of funds in secondary markets (cryptsy, mintpal, etc) for higher-risk higher-reward trading. This amount will never be more than 5% of the portfolio without shareholder approval. We're not big into alt-coins given the risk but lately we've noticed some good opportunities to make high-returns on small amounts (BC, ZET, KARM, LYC to name a few that have had rise/falls easy to jump in and jump out of). With how flat the BTC and LTC markets have been at times we think putting a small amount to this use acceptable. Currently we've put less than .5 btc toward this use.

As always feel free to share any thoughts/concerns/ideas with us in a reply or PM.

-Tom and Jeff

Probably. Our intent and hope with shares is to sell in a piecemeal approach; we hope to not ever issue 1000+ shares at a time or re-enable IPO (though we're not taking this off the table if a situation ever arises where it makes sense to do so). We plan on selling whatever demand warrants---if there are few asks within ~50% of the last price but alot of bids within ~50% of last price we'll sell more; if the situation is reversed then we'll sell little or none.
Which takes us to our next post....

Ok. thanks for you comment. i will wait for a longer track of record. waiting aint wrong after 100 % share rise in one month. are you going to release more shares after the 10000?

We sold shares before dividend payout today and are looking at different ways to spread out our share offerings...didn't think enough people were paying attention to us selling shares after each dividend but your right, enough people did start to take notice.
The share price has leveled off for now and were guessing itll start to steadily grow, if it stagnates or starts dipping we'll offer less or no shares. Hopefully when we start using the formula things should work out to allow steady growth.

Other projects are offering their shares by demand in blocks

like

0.0025   5000
0.00275  5000
0.00300  5000
0.003125 5000

or
0.0005 500000
0.0006 100000
0.0007 100000
0.0008 100000
0.0009 100000
0.001  100000

-so they increased their shareprice
-giving to the investor an idea of ipo share price (like median is between 0.00275 and 0.003125)

Your system might work too. Just make clear, what your way is and stick to it. Sorry to offend you by highlightnend and bold letters. I am sure your intentions are good.

That's not a bad idea either, maybe offer a significant amount at 0.006btc just like what you've done with 500 shares at 0.0055btc.

We we're hoping the last post would be enough to create some downward pressure without us actually having to sell any shares but it hasn't moved much. So what were going to do is put some sells in at .006 and still try to not to exceed our 600-800 range for the week nor suppress real demand/the share price. Hopefully some more sell orders show up around .0100 to keep a cap on the spikes. Obviously if we go too far in the wrong direction we'll pull back on the 200 shares at .006 and offer less, the hope here is to keep it growing from .006.

Thanks for your understanding and feel free to offer feedback/input as to the best course of action.

We'll comment more after the holiday weekend but we're growing a bit concerned as well. There are only 250 bids at >.006btc and we just saw that .10btc buy order which is truly absurd---we have a hard time believing that this is purely legitimate demand and not someone trying to manipulate the price for their own gain. (for anyone interested in looking at the orderbook: https://cryptostocks.com/api/get_orderbook.xml?ticker=return )
 We haven't even put in the formula/alorgithm yet, we've still been doing 200 every other day.... which we thought seemed like on the high end of qty of shares to be offering. Normally that pushes the price back down to close to .006 or should at least keep it from going like this. Yes the demand is certainly going up but these numbers just don't add up. If two people with 150 shares decide to sell at market then the price is going to come crashing down fast since there isn't really any support for these prices (hence why we suspect manipulation)
We'd like to avoid re-enabling the IPO since it basically "traps" shareholders and doesn't let the market set the price and give shareholders a chance to profit if they don't want to or can't wait for dividends. Given the circumstances we might have to do that or either offer a large chunk of shares to fend off the manipulation. We might try one then the other but we're going to be doing it shortly so please don't be alarmed if the IPO goes back on or if a large number of shares goes on the book at .006btc. This post is going to serve as advanced notice that we may offer more shares or temporarily re-enable IPO soon, we'd prefer to give better notice but we need to act quickly. Hopefully just our announcing our intention is enough to put the price back to reality.

We're glad to see so much interest right away from shareholders and that there is more concern for the long-term health than being happy to make a quick buck. Sorry we can't offer post-by-post replies and if this post is a bit all over the place but we're figuring out what action to take and (hopefully) still enjoy the holiday weekend.

Wow! Lesson to be learnt from that: always have some ridiculously overpriced sell-orders, just in case

Buying more shares at a lower price would have the same bottom-line effect, wouldn't it?

I do agree that there is always the uncertainty of whether or not the buy walls will maintain themselves. then again, there is always an uncertainty in be it trading cryptos or trading crypto-Stocks. If the current market price is say 0.0075btc/share then wouldn't it be beneficial to the whole operation to sell shares to fill that order to gain more capital for further investments. That way, performance is also steadily improving in terms of dividends being higher and higher per share, which also in-turn increase the value of the individual shares.

That aside, I see that the popularity of this operation is becoming more and more noticed by other investors. This trade history kind of shocked me:

April 19, 2014 09:50   Sell   0.009500   14   0.133000   BTC
April 19, 2014 09:39   Buy   0.010000   1   0.010000   BTC
April 19, 2014 09:32   Buy   0.100000   5   0.500000   BTC
April 19, 2014 09:32   Buy   0.010000   83   0.830000   BTC

I guess someone REALLY wanted some RETURN shares.

I, for one, don't feel safe buying over 0.006 while still in the IPO phase. Steady growth in the share price is great, but not when the issuer sells systematically hundreds of shares every two-days at market price; as soon as the high buy walls will have got their shares, if they are not renewed, the price will inevitably go back to 0.006. That uncertainty is a shame really, as I trust this operation and its long-term success, and would like to be able to buy more shares at the original price (well, the second price, since they were 0.005 initially).

As an early investor and a continuous investor, I've been buying shares since the IPO price of 0.005btc/share up to 0.008btc/share. I feel like this is a clear and definite indication of the success of the operations. As I am aware that CoinReturn's operations require more and more investments to have greater and greater performance , which is the primary reason for the continuous sale of remaining shares every two days to reduce the share market instability and steady growth of CoinReturn's value. I feel the steady and consistent release of 200 shares every other day is fine and does not require a complicated algorithm of distribution.

Therefore due to the growth of CoinReturn and its success, unrealistic prices as low as 0.006btc/share - 0.007btc/share would discourage existing investors of it's market potential and future. As a consistent investor like myself, I enjoy constant rise in share prices even if it means having to pay more myself, however ludicrous prices that were to damage the stock value are discouraged as well.

can you explain on that example your algorythm please. How many shares will be sold and for which price. Whats about the bids from 0.007501 down to 0.0060 what cant be seen?

Buy orders (BTC)
Price   Quantity   Amount
0.008001   1   0.008001
0.008000   1   0.008000
0.007800   7   0.054600
0.007700   286   2.202200
0.007621   41   0.312461
0.007620   5   0.038100
0.007531   8   0.060248
0.007510   2   0.015020
0.007505   4   0.030020
0.007501   10   0.075010

Very confusing everything   Cant you make the IPO like all the others? So you are in IPO but you dont sell shares directly for a certain price. Are you going to sell your shares, lets say for 0.006 in the future or continue on the basis of the higher the bid the more likely you can buy the share. The ask side is about 30 % higher than the bid side, the spread is enormous, even for cryptostocks.

I would really like to understand, what you are doing guys.


Was trying to buy shares the two last time, but I did not succeed. I still dont understand your system. Does anyone understand the algorythm? For me its like a lottery: make a high bid but not to high... and there are bids with up to 100 shares coming and disappearing.   Its like someone buying 100 shares up from the bid side and then selling it like 30 % higher, but how to get the shares? The time of releasing the shares is quiete random or? The amount is random, (like algorythm). So is it more a lotteryscam, by selling them for higher price?


Question to CoinReturn: Is someone of you buying the IPO shares for lets say 0.007 and selling them during the day for 0.009 as you know when they will be released?

And besides that, when the IPO price is 0.006 its a pretty scammy system to sell the IPO shares around 15 % higher as the IPO price    


today there were alot of bids like (50 pieces) until 0.00770 and then:

...
0.00771 200
0.00770 100
0.00699 50
...

I was in the 0.0770 bid inside. There were just 10 shares sold from 0.0770. So around 250 shares were sold in total. Why was the demand of 150 shares under 0.0770 to less for the algorythm? There were stil alot sharebids below 0.0699. ....

Can someone explain, please.