Topic: [RFC] æthereum: a turing-complete coin distributed as per bitcoin's blockchain - page 12. (Read 48649 times)

I think this idea has been floating around already for some time, but never been really "noticed" or used in practice.  Ethereum is a very interesting concept, although I'm not fully convinced yet that it is practical - but I'm really looking forward to your launch and hope you can do it!  I fully agree with the arguments that the current Bitcoin balances are a good way to distribute new, experimental altcoins in a symbiotic manner to Bitcoin (rather than as competition).

With respect to the "few people hold lots of Bitcoins" argument:  If you launch Ethereum with an IPO, then those same few people with lots of coins can/will still buy lots of Ether.  (Which may even be only a tiny fraction of their coin holdings.)  So no change here.

my first impression is that i like this idea much better than Hill and Beck's Sidechain proposal.

1.  the initial distribution is fair and codified.  
2.  Bitcoin holders have everything to gain and nothing to fear from any altcoin clone distributed in this manner.  they are free to evaluate the altcoin on it's own merits as to whether they hold, sell, or even mine their aether.
3.  it's a much more effective separation from an altcoin; no firewall needed.  i have my doubts about how BTC's can traverse back and forth btwn the main Bitcoin blockchain and a Sidechain w/o interfering with the main chain function long term.  i believe there will be some risk.
4.  they have said they are forming a "company" with "core devs" who undoubtedly will be employed and/or shareholders.  this introduces potential bias and risk to Bitcoin from profit motives.
5.  Peter has introduced an ingenious way to set up a head to head competition btwn aether and ether that can be applied to any altcoin.  this has the potential to severely inhibit scamcoins and premines.  which is a good thing.
6.  altcoin devs still have an incentive to innovate.  if Bitcoin holders dump their free aether, as Peter suggests, the devs have the opportunity to scoop up cheap aether as testimony to the belief in the merits of their altcoin.

i eagerly await more information.

Yes. The correct way to implement this kind of distribution model is to pick a block number (eg. 290000), and say that bitcoins at that specific block are what gives you aethereum. Otherwise, you can claim some AETH with your BTC, deposit and withdraw from an exchange, claim more AETH, and repeat ad infinitum. For the system to be trust-free and secure, it would have to be based on private key signing, which means that you would have to have them in a personal wallet.

If you don't want to set up a new wallet and deal with different addresses another somewhat technical alternative is to use my pybtctool toolkit to generate a brainwallet and put your money all in the one address just before the nucleus happens. Pybitcointools/pybtctool includes Electrum message signing functionality with the "ecdsa_sign" command; here's an example session:

You can independently verify that 04334... is the public key corresponding to sha256(cow). Then you can easily sign a transaction to move funds back out. It's literally as easy as a command line utility possibly can be. But I personally would recommend for this group to do something similar to what we're doing and release an application which people can send their BTC to (it's client side so no security risk involved) such that the application signs at the appropriate time and then sends the BTC back out. Having easy-to-use tools for doing this kind of signing would really do a lot to help Bitcoin-based issuance models gain wider adoption.

Yes.  But the exact bitcoin block # that will be used for the nucleus will be telegraphed to the community with ample notice.  If you want to maximize your amount of free aether, simply ensure your coins are in an address that you control on the date the "snapshot" is taken, and then move them out again.  

My premise is simply that a bitcoin-blockchain-based clone will eat any promising alt coin.  æthereum is a realization of this scheme as applied to Ethereum.  Only with empirical data will we know if my premise is correct.  It seems like this idea is quickly spreading, however...


Here is a more complete discussion of the general theory:  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6148897

You need to have control of the private keys to the addresses, so no an exchange wallet would not likely work (unless there is an exchange out there that provides such capabilities.. of which I'm not familiar).

He said the date and time will be known well in advance, so on this day just move it to a personal wallet you have on your computer or a blockchain.info wallet.

Great idea, this would be the best gen 2 cryptocoin launch thus far!!

I wish you all the best!

What about BTC I hold at an exchange? Would I need to move all my BTC to a personal BTC wallet before nucleus?

The argument that a random distribution TO existing Bitcoin holders is inferior to some scheme mirroring the blockchain distribution is telelogical in nature.

Basically behind all the empty high sounding language, what you are advocating for your coin is some sort of PoS scheme for distribution. All I'm proposing is to add some "white noise" to a PoS distribution.

What you seem to be proposing is a lottery and would result in an extremely inefficient distribution in aggregate.  

By tempting users with unimaginable wealth during rallies and then threatening to take it all way during crashes, the bitcoin free market has become a highly-efficient computer continuously refining the answer to the question “what is the most efficient distribution of coins in a cryptocurrency?”  The point is that any other distribution would be eaten by the blockchain-based distribution because this is currently our best guess at the "most efficient distribution of coins" (whether you like it or not):

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6148897

Why wouldn't you just figure out a distribution mechanism to existing BTC wallets?

You could use some kind of distribution curve. Say setup some sort of Gaussian distributed random number generator whose mean is the total of coins you want to distribute divided by the number of wallets. Don't tell anybody what your doing until after the distribution to prevent gaming the system. Set the variance to what ever you want.

We've been talking about this since yesterday, but I see Levine just talked about a similar idea too:

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/e99-sidechain-innovation/#.U0X-TVdI964

The value is in bitcoin's blockchain.  A blockchain-based clone will eat any promising alt coin.  

The statement that the bitcoin wealth distribution is unfair is an ethical projection based on one's preconceived notions of fairness.  

What we know empirically is that over 5 years, 3 crashes, and $600,000,000 of unrecoverable mining costs, bitcoins have diffused across our user base and the resulting distribution has been logged to the blockchain.  By tempting you with unimaginable wealth during a rally and then threatening to take it all way during a crash, the free market has become a highly-efficient computer continuously refining the solution to the question “what is the most efficient distribution of coins in a cryptocurrency?

Whether you think wealth disparity is good or bad, the truth is that it is inevitable.  The existing bitcoin distribution is the most efficient of all coins in existence.  Thus, by cloning any interesting alt (e.g., NxT) with the exact distribution contained in the blockchain, the freely-distributed clone naturally becomes superior to the expensive pre-mined version.  The clone automatically has the largest user base and a highly diffused distribution.

Why would you purchase NxT if you received bNxT for free?  Why would you think that NxT would succeed more than bNxT when bNxT automatically has a vastly larger user base?


If cryptocurrency succeeds, everyone here will see themselves as early adopters.  The value is in the bitcoin blockchain.  By acquiring a spot on the blockchain, you will piggyback future innovations in cryptocurrency automatically.    

Ethereum is an ambitious project and may fail on technical grounds,
Could this block chain leveraged pre-mine be applied to existing open source altcoins like mastercoin or ProtoShares?

To attract developers, and support the original creators, would it be practical to create the pre-mined coins form 2 blockchains? i.e. supporting Ethereums blockchain and the Bitcoin blockchain eg. :

1)   claim æther by signing a private message on the Bitcoin blockchain.
2)   claim æther by signing a private message on the Ethereums blockchain.


I’d argue Bitcoin is better distributed than any altcoin.

The Bitcoin seed (pre-mine) does not need to represent 50% of all future mining, the original Bitcoin seed could represent just 25 or 10% of the pre-mined coins.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Wouldn't it just duplicate one of the main faults of bitcoin? That is, a lot of coins owned by a very small percentage of people?

Interesting idea but bitcoin has wealth concentrated at the top don't you this kind of scheme will only benefit the richest?

A fascinating property of this coin distribution method is that your æther coins are always waiting for you, even if you never claim them.  Every bitcoin user automatically becomes an æthereum user, as they are automatically awarded coins that can be freely claimed.  If you choose to do nothing, you would essentially become a "holder," and holders perform an important function in a cryptocurrency.  

The distribution mechanism of æthereum is such that many bitcoin users will become "holders" by default.  



We will have a detailed tutorial closer to launch, and let me say again that even if you do nothing you still retain ownership of the same amount of æther.  You only need to "claim" it if you wish to sell it or use it.  

Here is a simple example of how bitcoin-signed messages work:  Assume you control the private key to bitcoin address 1LiPtBZu91C4mqFC98EFrHLjwHwXE8cfrE.  Assume your æthereum address is "MyAethereumAddress".  You can sign this æthereum address with the private key to your bitcoin address using the "sign message" feature in the blockchain.info wallet (other wallets can do this to).  The resulting signature is

-----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
MyAethereumAddress
-----BEGIN SIGNATURE-----
1LiPtBZu91C4mqFC98EFrHLjwHwXE8cfrE
HKjPUDueVly2uqcFqxcQNox+IHA9pCgUHXMs+6f9BDN+rkGWRy6Sb04VYmDMADDizc9BK09Iv2getRbiQeUfkAE=
-----END BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----

By posting this to the æthereum network, you've provided cryptographic proof that you control the bitcoins at address 1LiPtBZu91C4mqFC98EFrHLjwHwXE8cfrE without revealing your bitcoin private key.  The æthereum network will thus recognize that you can rightfully claim the same percent of æther that this key controls of bitcoin, just like how a bitcoin miner awards himself a coinbase output as a block reward.  

1LiPtBZu91C4mqFC98EFrHLjwHwXE8cfrE has a balance of 0.  But let's assume it had a balance of 1.28 BTC when the nucleus was formed and let's assume the total number of bitcoins in circulation at this time was 12,800,000 BTC.  This means that you control 1.28 / 12,800,000 = 0.00001% of the bitcoin market cap.  You would be awarded (for free) 0.00001% of the pre-mined æther.  

You could sell your æther, hold it, or purchase more.  

I'm a newbie so I'm not a technical expert at using bitcoin wallets. Could you provide a dummies guide on how to sign an æther address under your control with a bitcoin private key?

I know this is very basic stuff to an expert but if you want mass adoption you need to explain a technical step like this in a way that even technophobes can understand.

æthereum: a turing-complete cryptocurrency with initial coin distribution based on the bitcoin blockchain

NOTE TO READERS: this post represents a “request for comments” regarding an innovative coin distribution method to bootstrap the launch of experimental cryptocurrencies: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/spin-offs-bootstrap-an-altcoin-with-a-btc-blockchain-based-initial-distribution-563972 .  Our first case study is a clone of the upcoming Ethereum system.  

FAQs:

1.  What is æthereum?

æthereum is a Turing-complete cryptocurrency where the initial distribution of coins is based on the unspent bitcoin outputs on an agreed-upon point in the future (these unspent outputs are known as "the nucleus").  

2.  This sounds like Ethereum.  Is it the same thing?

No, æthereum is unique.  

3.  In what ways is æthereum the same as Ethereum?

æthereum is functionally equivalent to Ethereum.  They are both based on the same source code.  

4.  In what ways is æthereum different?

The initial distribution of coins in æthereum is different.  If you are a bitcoin user, you can use your bitcoin private keys to claim a percentage of æther exactly equal to the percentage of the bitcoin market cap you controlled at the time of nucleus creation.  This claiming process is trustless and decentralized and doesn't cost you anything.  

5.  But I have to buy ether during the Ethereum IPO by trading real bitcoins!  Why are you guys giving æther away for free if it is basically the same thing?

The most difficult part of launching a cryptocurrency is attracting a user base.  Because you own bitcoins, you've demonstrated that you are an advocate for its success.  æthereum can only become successful with the support of the community, and since it costs nothing to "give away æther," doing so both helps our coin and helps the cryptocurrency community.  

It has taken us 5 years, 3 crashes, and $600,000,000 of unrecoverable mining costs to efficiently distribute bitcoins across the user base.  Rather than spending another 5 years and countless crashes, we can bootstrap æthereum by beginning at Day 0 with the same distribution of coins.  

6.  Wait a second, you’re actually telling me my bitcoin private keys allow me to claim æther for free?

Yes.  

7.  But what if I decide to claim my free æther and immediately sell it?

We are expecting several people to do exactly this, and in fact this is necessary to create a functioning market for æther.  We expect æther to initially trade at less than 0.1% of the bitcoin market cap.  

8.  Why would I sell my æther at such a low valuation?  Even Nxt has a market cap over 0.4% that of bitcoin’s.  It seems to me that æther would be worth more because it has more potential users and a more efficient initial distribution of coins.

Well, you are free to keep you æther if you choose to.  In fact, if you think the market price for æther falls too low, then you can purchase more from another bitcoin user who feels the price is too high.

9.  Are you keeping any æther for yourself?  Is there a pre-mine?

The initial distribution of æther is exactly equal to the unspent bitcoin outputs during nucleus creation.  æther can only be removed from the nucleus with ECDSA signatures made by the corresponding bitcoin private keys.  

10.  Then how are you going to reward yourself for your development work?

We believe that many current bitcoin holders will perceive their æther as "free money" and sell it for a low price.  Since we believe in the long-term prospects of this technology, we intend to buy these coins for cheap.  We will then continue to develop æthereum and if we are successful our coins will increase in value.  

11.  Why would anyone buy ether if they can get æther for free?

We cannot answer that question for you. Some people may feel that the distribution of wealth encoded in the bitcoin blockchain is somehow unfair.  Such people may wish to purchase ether if they feel the IPO process results in a more efficient distribution of wealth.  

12.  How exactly will I claim my æther?

Using your æthereum client, you can create one or several accounts.  Each account has an associated address.  To claim your æther, simply sign the æthereum address that you want credited with a bitcoin private key.  Paste the signature into the “claim aether” window in your client and post the transaction to the network.  This will provide cryptographic proof to the æthereum network of your right to claim your portion of æther from the nucleus.  

13.  But I don’t trust you with my bitcoin private keys.

There is no need to trust us.  Simply sign an æther address under your control with a bitcoin private key using whatever wallet you are comfortable with (e.g., blockchain.info, Armory, etc.,) and paste the resulting signature into the æthereum client.

14.  How do I know you’re not going to steal Satoshi’s æther, or remove someone else’s coins?

The æthereum nucleus is based on the unspent bitcoin outputs in the blockchain at a point in the future that will be telegraphed to the community far in advance.   This nucleus becomes public information and a critical part of the æthereum code.  Anyone will be able to verify that the nucleus credits bitcoin addresses exactly as per the snapshot of the blockchain at the agreed upon time.  æthereum will be launched from this nucleus after providing the community sufficient time to verify nucleus accuracy.  The æthereum network will only recognize æther claimed from the nucleus with a bitcoin signature, or æther created by the mining process (refer to white paper).  

15.  Where can I learn more about æthereum?  Is there a white paper?

Since æthereum is functionally identical to Ethereum, except for the initial distribution of coins, please refer to the following white paper:  https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/%5BEnglish%5D-White-Paper.

16.  Wow, this is a cool idea.  Couldn’t any alt-coin be re-released with an initial coin distribution equal to the unspent outputs in the bitcoin blockchain?

Yes.  In fact, we believe that any alt-coin will enjoy greater success if any premined coins are freely distributed as per the unspent outputs in the bitcoin blockchain, when compared to any other distribution method.  If this premise is true, then any promising alt coin can be made more promising by re-releasing it using bitcoin's unspent outputs to determine initial ownership of coins.

We believe this distribution method is a good thing for the community including innovative alt coin developers.  It places all alt-coins on equal footings and allows them to compete based on their own merits.