Topic: Ripple: A Distributed Exchange for Bitcoin - page 5. (Read 66713 times)

Ripple is crap

how can XRP have any value if it's possible for anyone to run their own Ripple network ie. the software is open source?

Unfortunately, due to a server bug, some history was lost. You can't trace all the way back to the genesis ledger. You can trace back to ledger 32,570. All history after the beta was opened is available. All that was lost was the ledger headers -- all the transactions are still available, so there's some hope that the history may still be recovered.

In each ledger, there is a header field that tracks the total amount of XRP in existence. It is easy to check that the total XRP in the ledger equals the amount in the header and that the header field equals the previous ledger's total less the total of all transaction fees. There are no mechanisms to create or destroy XRP and any change that did so would be immediately detectable.

All ledgers (after 32,570) are publicly available. Each ledger contains the hash of the previous ledger and all the transactions that were applied to turn the previous ledger into this ledger. Each transaction is signed by the account that issued it and is bundled in the ledger along with metadata explaining precisely what ledger entries it affected.

If, for example, XRP were to somehow appear, there would have to be an accepted ledger before the XRP appeared and an accepted ledger after the XRP appeared. All these ledgers would be signed by the majority of validators or they wouldn't have been accepted. In the first ledger after the XRP appeared, there would either have to be a transaction whose metadata included the increase in XRP or not. If not, then there is 100% conclusive evidence that a stated invariant was broken -- an account's balance may not be changed without a transaction whose metadata shows that change. If so, then there is still 100% conclusive evidence that a stated invariant was broken -- an account's metadata may only change the total XRP in the ledger by destroying its transaction fee.

This would all be conclusively provable by anyone who cared to look.

No. BTCs are mined. A BTC is a proof of work.
XRPs are issued by opencoin. Opencoin can issue as many XRP as they want.

I didn't ask how you verify them, I asked what do you verify. And the answer is: you verify that it is a legitimate XRP, and that is all. There is no proof of work as XRPs can be created at will by opencoin.

This discussion is getting absurd. You do not answer any of my questions. I've already made my point for whomever reads this thread.

XRP work just like BTC, you can trace them back to the genesis block. The block chain is called "Ledger" in Ripple, the client + API to access it is Open Source.

Nice slalom around my questions. I specifically asked you not to make comparisons with bitcoin. Yet I only read three paragraphs of "just like bitcoin" baloney.

Cut to the chase. What do I verify when verify a XRP?

No, that there won't be >= 100 Billion XRP in total before they go OpenSource/distributed.

See "What about XRPs, how can I be sure opencoin doesn't start issuing them at will?" - I'd offer 1:1 betting, so there is a chance to win the same amount back if they really issue more XRP than they promised to!

This is one eventuality where they WOULD do this. However, while XRP has value, nobody is pushing people to "buy in". Users and merchants can benefit from Ripple while holding very little XRP, and the value of XRP only necessarily needs to be enough to assure the integrity of the network by reducing spam transactions.

IOW a new network would have to create a new XRP-style currency out of thin air, and adopt a very similar scheme. They would have to somehow get everybody on board despite the fact that in Ripple, we already have a great functioning iteration of the technology, is how I'm reading it.

well yes they want to create conditions where this SPECIFIC currency remains in demand- which naturally they retain most of the ownership of.

I think this is one important reason OpenCoin isn't releasing the source code yet. They may want to create an installed base with a financial interest not to jump to a different fork. And before you start complaining about this, it is exactly what we are seeing right now with Bitcoin miners bitching about XRP.

well if the XRPs are in the hands of specific people, and the community favors an alternative distribution of wealth- then a such a 'fork' would be well received.

if ALL the functionality is available to the public, why WOULDN'T they do this?

A forking of the network could happen, but it would have to represent real progress, MeanieCoin > Ripple? I can only offer my guess that a system so complex, with so many developers and business people working hard in support of it, will be nearly impossible to usurp.

Why?

GLWT. Ripple is not your average open source project. 30+ "MeanieCoins" have been created, and only Litecoin ever did anything (as bitcoiners seem to love it for some reason). It will probably be even harder to fork Ripple than it currently is to fork Bitcoin.
Are you trying to bet that OpenCoin will release all of the XRP intended for distribution (55B) prior to the server code ever being released?

You can only verify the past, in both Ripple and Bitcoin. In Bitcoin you can also run a node yourself that will enforce rules for the future for you - it is however not possible to say if the coins guarded by this client will even be accepted anywhere in the future, as there is potential for hard forks. Ripple intentionally did not let many people run nodes yet, to do more events that would be equivalent to a hard fork in Bitocoin while developing.

I don't want to go on speculating what happens if the 4 biggest pools decide to mine different coins instead of the current BTC, but I can assure you that they DO have a lot of decision power and other pools are just not even fit to handle the amount of miners.

The "it's not true" part is as true for XRP as for BTC - in both cases new rules COULD be entered in the system in theory. In practice it is as unlikely (actually even more unlikely, XRP have a higher market cap than BTC currently for example) as for BTC core rules to change to issue more XRP. If you wish to bet money (BTC) on that, I'm more than willing to participate. So far noone has yet offered any bet statement + bet amount that XRP will actually be issued before Ripple becomes Open Source.

good points.  Here's another similar question for Ripple: if the entire system is going to be open source, what's stopping people from forming an entire separate network with a new set of XRPs?  Clearly these things already have value for some reason, or are being treated as such.  In an open source scenario, I can create another set of XRPs, let's call them MeanieDollars, that do the exact same thing as XRPs.  That is, if Ripple will indeed go open source.

uuuh.. what?
Are you serious or just trolling? honest question.

With my own computer I can verify that whatever BTC blockchain I have will consit of transactions over a fixed number of coins that I know. It's a huge stretch to refer to an hijack of 50%+ of the network as a normal way to change the number of coins.

Also, it's not '3-4 pool operators' is 50%+ of hashing power. Those are not the same thing at all. A pool operator can't do shit if miners pull out. Also, we don't know how the mining distribution will look like. Quite frankly I can't see the price going up while mining gets concentrated in fewer pools. No way high stake holders will allow that.

Also, you never explained why 'it's not true' that XRPs cannot be issued at will. Explain me how I can be sure of that. We all know and can verify the proof of work of every last bitcoin. What about XRPs, how can I be sure opencoin doesn't start issuing them at will?

And what will stop people from changing these terms after you release it as open source?

I've been working with open source for over a decade, including p2p systems and I've never heard of such a justification in my life.  This isn't the only peculiar thing about the Ripple project.

Seems you didn't offer to answer my other question: how will the server be licensed?

Me too, I wanted to wait for a shortage in BTC and then sell a few and buy back cheaply a few weeks later. Either others had the same idea (why are they selling at a loss then though?!) or *tinfoilhat* OpenCoin is buying back it's XRP or there is actual demand for XRP.

indeed. i thought the price will fall down because everybody is selling his giveaway