Topic: Ripple XRP distribution requires immediate formalization - page 4. (Read 5866 times)

But you are not dealing in bitcoins! In Ripple your transactions are in bitcoin tokens (bitcoin IOUs). Bitcoin IOUs require a central authority to issue them. Why transferring bitcoin IOUs should be any different from transferring USD IOUs or EUR IOUs issued by one and the same ripple gateway?

I'm not sure why would you need this in Ripple@ But as far as I know there is only one solution to this problem - the blind signatures proposed by Open Transaction. You might need to look at the OT server cash-only mode!

That may help as well:
http://wbl.github.com/bitcoinanon.pdf

By trading on the block chain I mean that to transfer an asset, you must perform an operation on the Bitcoin block chain. That's what we want to avoid because it requires access to a Bitcoin server, takes many tens of minutes for confirmations, requires some authority to hold the keys for the Bitcoin transactions, and so on.

That doesn't help you. You still have to trade on the blockchain. The point was to make it possible to trade bitcoins off the blockchain.

To think about the problem another way, try it like this: Suppose I want to "deposit" namecoins into the Bitcoin blockchain, trade them around with Bitcoin transactions, and then let their final owners "withdraw" them from the Bitcoin blockchain back into namecoins. How can I do that? (And the short answer is, without a central authority or everyone deciding who to trust to hold the namecoin keys for themselves and making them non-fungible, you can't so far as we know.)

I may not understand what do you mean by "trading on the block chain" but if I understand it right then you may not be aware of what does coloring really mean?

Colored bitcoins can be transfered between different owners just like ordinary bitcoins. There is no need for a central authority to keep transaction records. To check whether a transaction or transaction output is of color RED we need just to find whether we can trace it back to the genesis transaction (the IPO of the issuer). Transaction is of color RED if all of its inputs come from transactions of color RED. Bitcoins of color RED will turn into ordinary bitcoins if they are mixed with anything but color RED.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/colored-bitcoin-tech-discussion-106449
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/order-based-coin-coloring-114571

You have to. If you don't trade on the block chain, then the original offeror retains control over the asset, defeating the entire point.

Right, but all of this either requires a central authority or trading on the bitcoin block chain. I don't see how this allows you to trade off the blockchain without a central authority. And the proof is this simple: The offeror always retains control over the colored coins unless you trade on the blockchain. So you either need to trade on the blockchain or you need some central authority to decide which offerors can be trusted. (Otherwise, you just wind up with the same solution Ripple has -- each user decides for themselves which offerors to trust, Bitcoins aren't fungible, and you have to find a payment path.)

How does colored coins help? I don't get it.

You don't trade on the block chain!

I'll just re-quote:

Then what does the coloring buy you? This is basically just identical to uncolored Bitcoins. Remember, the ideas was to avoid having to trade on the Bitcoin blockchain.

The issuer of the colored bitcoins is in control of the initial offering and the final redemption. There is no central authority needed to transfer colored bitcoins. They are transfered in the same way the colorless bitcoins are transfered.

Without a central authority, who would control the keys needed to transfer the colored coins?

Why do you need to move them off the main chain? Isn't it enough to mark them or color them?
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/chromawallet-colored-coins-issue-and-trade-private-currenciesstocksbonds-106373

Rather the opposite is true I have asked very specific policy questions to no avail. I understand this is all the beginning and maybe even ripple's founders don't really know what their plan is, but so long as the emperor wears no clothes I will be keen to point this out.

I and others have already made multiple suggestions, both for fair XRP distribution policy and non XRP solutions, and there are more to come so long as opencoin is open to change. Yes it is a hard problem, but there are always better solutions and hopefully this topic gains the importance it requires now as opposed to later when it is too late to change.

Let's start a community challenge to find a better solution, preferably with no XRP or currency dependence at all. I would like to start by suggesting to base a user's network priority around their ripple credit network "rating" combined with dynamic proof of work requirements.

He's not going to answer - it's a hard problem with no good solution except for the approach you guys adopted.

As I've tried very hard to explain, it was mandated by technical reasons. We honestly didn't know any other way to do it. And, to this day, nobody has suggested any. I've explained why Bitcoins don't work, why proof of work doesn't work, why CAPTCHAs don't work, why some mechanism is needed, and why using XRP does work. Please, tell us what the alternative is. It must not require any central authorities once initial distribution is completed. And ideally, it would also be a way that makes it possible for us to make the system free to as many people as possible for as long as possible.

BTW, can this thread be moved to the alt currency subforum?
(I assume that bitbully will be able to post here ... if that's not the default, can someone make it so?)

DISCLAIMER I'm in no way associated with OpenCoin as for today.

Imagine I'm boss of this OpenCoin company and hold private key from XRP 100B account, here are my answers:


I don't really care about what will happen to network after the point when I sold my XRP 100B holdings. Maybe I will start another one.


I created a lot because I hope for mass adoption of this and I don't want to bother about how to name 0.0001 XRP - mini BTC or statoshi... You  know what I mean, right?


Irrelevant - no comment here.


No... who told you that? XRP is not a currency in my eyes... it's tickets to the show called Ripple transactions.. and I'm just selling tickets here... I'm selling "Ripple" to you.. and you buying "Ripple" with XRP.


With all the respect, let me decide what I need to do... If you think we did not do our homework evaluating all these things you are wrong...

Plus, you must understand that we are not 19 years olds building another start up for photo sharing  at the basements of their parents.. We know how Bitcoin works inside out... plus much more ... so be sure - what I offer is the best stuff for today.



It's my business model... or you think I'm working for free here? I have my bills to pay... my kids need college, my wife needs bigger house.. I always wanted to buy this Tesla car...



It's not flawed at all... XRP is mine, of course I'm ready to lose some part of by spending on advertising. Nobody but me can create it... If you want to "mine" it like BTC, no problem "mine" them from me... Let me save you money you spend on ASICs and GPUs... We have wholesale discounts for amounts starting from 1M and more...


Little piece of advice, stop being concerned about how much money I will make on this, concentrate on how much money we can do together as a partners...

Just thinking, why people can't embrace that XRP is not meant to be like BTC, just go trade USD, BTC, EUR... go make/give loans, transfer money etc...

Andrew it is an interesting and good suggestion but I think that when they "run out of ripples" the price will start floating and if it just so happens their "friends" bought 50 billion then xrp becomes a manipulable and valuable asset. I think your suggestion illuminates the unsustainable nature of this network security model.

Creating an enormous amount of virtual currency with the claim that it will last for a very long time is both irresponsible from a security pov, inefficient from a mathematical pov, and unsound from an economic pov. Throwing money at a problem, or just using very large numbers to solve a problem always leave a glitch in the matrix, and we all know what happens to the matrix.

XRP can and should be their own currency, based on synchronization, proof of work, or any other digital currency model. Everyone should have the right to trade in their own choice of currency; but forcing the community to use specifically XRP as a means of transaction capability is wrong.

The central distribution model is too flawed despite the creators good intentions. The entirety of XRP reserves needs to be democratized, or the txn mechanism needs to be replaced with a non currency dependent approach.

I will be direct and ask:

Why do you need the 50 billion XRP reserves?
Is this your intended revenue model?
Perhaps you can share your business model with us?

I want to help make ripple a success, but only if it matches bitcoin's standard of transparency and fairness.

Look, as far as I know there is limited XRP number = 100 000 000 000.

Now let's imagine you make a promise to sell any amount for 1000 XRP for $1. This will give you maximum $100 000 000 profit when you will run out of XRPs.

Pros:

1. People will always be sure they can use Ripple for predefined value or less.
2. XRP will never be speculative vehicle as Bitcoin is.


Cons:

1. You will make maximum $100 000 000 for all your efforts.
2. Somebody can buy all XRP and network will be paralyzed


Now, in case of network paralyze we just jump into Ripple 2, where you again have XRP 100B, same rules etc...

NO DAMAGE WILL BE CAUSED, that's why:

1. We would not need to transfer value like in case of BTC chain reset - it's only XRP will be reset ( that nobody cares about since there will be Ripple fountain where you can buy them (from you) )

2. Everybody will just need to re-adjust credit lines - this is not the problem because people will anyway do it very often.

So? People, what do you think

How about a blog?

I'm honestly not trying to discourage you. These are unsolved problems and good solutions might make all kinds of things possible that are currently very difficult to do. But the first step in solving a problem is realizing that you actually have a problem for which you don't know the solution.

A closely related problem is finding a way to move Bitcoins off the main block chain and into another system in such a way that they can be retrieved by their new owners in the Bitcoin block chain without a central authority. Lots of cool things would be possible if someone solved that. For example, that would be a step to allowing other systems to use Bitcoins to pay transaction fees, Bitcoin nanopayments, and so on..

The captcha was an analogy to proof of work...

I suppose I should stop talking and start doing since clearly you have weighed the technical possibilities.

The real question then is, do you trust yourself with so much xrp? With great power comes great responsibility young Anakin