Rumors of Bitcoin's libertarian death have been greatly exaggerated. - page 2.

amspir

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Quote from: Bit_Happy on March 29, 2014, 10:20:39 PM

Sadly it's a common smear of libertarianism these days.
Clearly a buy-product of rheally pour sckooling.

I'm just asking what the difference is. If you are unable to explain, then I don't think you have a firm understanding of your philosophy. I honestly want to know. It's not a smear.

If you actually have a valid argument as to why Somalia doesn't represent a libertarian utopia, then I may use it myself to argue the other way in the future.

You really don't have to feel insulted when your way of thinking is challenged.

Bit_Happy

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A Great Time to Start Something!

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: amspir on March 29, 2014, 06:28:34 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: amspir on March 29, 2014, 05:46:56 PM

If extreme libertarians wanted to support the libertarian paradise, then they would flock to Somalia and participate in assassination politics to keep a centralized government from forming that controls all of Somalia.

Wut?

Just to be clear, it is a hypothetical. I'd like an extremist libertarian to explain how Somalia differs from a libertarian utopia, just like I'd ask an ideological communist why the Soviet Union didn't turn out to be the worker's paradise that Karl Marx envisioned.

Why are we comparing Somalia to a libertarian utopia in the first place?

Sadly it's a common smear of libertarianism these days.
Clearly a buy-product of rheally pour sckooling.

Elwar

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Viva Ut Vivas

Quote from: amspir on March 29, 2014, 06:28:34 PM

So far the only answer presented is that a very young, internationally recognized government that has held the majority of the capital city for less than three years, is to blame.

While a young, internationally attacked non-government is supposed to represent the ideal libertarian utopia?

amspir

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Quote from: cryptoanarchist on March 29, 2014, 08:55:23 PM

The fact that Gox has died a relatively quick death, and that the foundation is following behind is actually proof of just how quick things are starting to change.

Proof that a free market works, over a banking system that extorts the government and demands a socialization of losses rather than failure.

cryptoanarchist

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Quote from: Bit_Happy on March 29, 2014, 03:30:35 PM

Quote from: Peter R on March 29, 2014, 01:07:45 PM

Quote from: cryptoanarchist on March 29, 2014, 12:24:07 PM

If you have a hierarchical-pyramid system, like we have now, all other systems become hierarchical as well. If you have a decentralized system like cryptocoins, everything else will become decentralized.

That is an interesting analogy and quite correct I believe. Thank you for that.

If you have a decentralized system like cryptocoins, everything else will become decentralized.
No way...
Gox...Bitcoin Foundation, etc.
We need to fight to support decentralized projects, and it doesn't "just happen."

yeah, actually it does. Just creating a decentralized system doesn't erase hierarchical systems or beliefs overnight. 99.99% of the human population still have hierarchy-on-the-brain, mainly because the fiat-pyramid-hierarchical monetary system is STILL the main system by a vast margin.

The fact that Gox has died a relatively quick death, and that the foundation is following behind is actually proof of just how quick things are starting to change.

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: amspir on March 29, 2014, 06:28:34 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: amspir on March 29, 2014, 05:46:56 PM

If extreme libertarians wanted to support the libertarian paradise, then they would flock to Somalia and participate in assassination politics to keep a centralized government from forming that controls all of Somalia.

Wut?

Just to be clear, it is a hypothetical. I'd like an extremist libertarian to explain how Somalia differs from a libertarian utopia, just like I'd ask an ideological communist why the Soviet Union didn't turn out to be the worker's paradise that Karl Marx envisioned.

So far the only answer presented is that a very young, internationally recognized government that has held the majority of the capital city for less than three years, is to blame.

I think mostly you'd just like to boost your post count .... all of your stupid questions (and straw arguments) are answered quite well elsewhere in numerous publications over many years already. Just get out there and research, if you are genuine, which I highly suspect not.

amspir

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: amspir on March 29, 2014, 05:46:56 PM

If extreme libertarians wanted to support the libertarian paradise, then they would flock to Somalia and participate in assassination politics to keep a centralized government from forming that controls all of Somalia.

Wut?

Just to be clear, it is a hypothetical. I'd like an extremist libertarian to explain how Somalia differs from a libertarian utopia, just like I'd ask an ideological communist why the Soviet Union didn't turn out to be the worker's paradise that Karl Marx envisioned.

So far the only answer presented is that a very young, internationally recognized government that has held the majority of the capital city for less than three years, is to blame.

amspir

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Quote from: TheButterZone on March 29, 2014, 06:11:01 AM

I love when people call a government that's gotten off to exactly the right foot for tyranny (throwing people in prison and/or killing them for mere possession of "illegal" arms) a failed state.

You are talking about a government less than three year old, that barely holds on to Mogadishu. If extreme libertarians wanted to support the libertarian paradise, then they would flock to Somalia and participate in assassination politics to keep a centralized government from forming that controls all of Somalia. It shouldn't be hard to do at present, with enough guns.

Bit_Happy

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A Great Time to Start Something!

Quote from: Peter R on March 29, 2014, 01:07:45 PM

Quote from: cryptoanarchist on March 29, 2014, 12:24:07 PM

If you have a hierarchical-pyramid system, like we have now, all other systems become hierarchical as well. If you have a decentralized system like cryptocoins, everything else will become decentralized.

That is an interesting analogy and quite correct I believe. Thank you for that.

If you have a decentralized system like cryptocoins, everything else will become decentralized.
No way...
Gox...Bitcoin Foundation, etc.
We need to fight to support decentralized projects, and it doesn't "just happen."

Peter R

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Quote from: cryptoanarchist on March 29, 2014, 12:24:07 PM

If you have a hierarchical-pyramid system, like we have now, all other systems become hierarchical as well. If you have a decentralized system like cryptocoins, everything else will become decentralized.

That is an interesting analogy and quite correct I believe. Thank you for that.

cryptoanarchist

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Quote from: amspir on March 28, 2014, 09:14:15 PM

Quote from: cryptoanarchist on March 28, 2014, 09:09:34 PM

Have you even been to Somalia? What are you basing your knowledge of its current condition on? "Captain Phillips" with Tom Hanks??

I refuse to see that movie, because it glorifies the mighty power of the US Navy brought to bear on a bunch of skinny teenagers. I read a lot; but no, I have never been there, have you?

I've never been there, and so I don't use living conditions there as an argument for or against government. I'm fairly certain they are more primitive there, but as far as their freedom goes under different conditions and degrees of government, I think someone who actually lives there could give a better evaluation.

Quote from: xDan on March 29, 2014, 09:08:52 AM

Bitcoin exists, therefore all is well with the world, and the libertarians and crypto anarchists can rest and watch with smug and knowing eyes from the distance as slowly, something amazing begins to happen...

Their once weak and needy offspring has now turned into a tough and resilient young adult, casting its eyes around for freakin' countries to conquer.

Yup.

Money is the root. It is called currency because it is like the electrical system of any body or machine: It controls everything else. If you have a hierarchical-pyramid system, like we have now, all other systems become hierarchical as well. If you have a decentralized system like cryptocoins, everything else will become decentralized.

Bitcoin will dissolve governments by simply being more efficient - no PR campaign or persuasion necessary.

timecoin

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Quote from: coincoin3 on March 29, 2014, 03:02:20 AM

Bitcoin does not rely on the government, a new invention and great money. I have always believed that.

Personally, I, as an urban dweller, see broadband internet as means for rural dweller to not remain backwards and ignorant, and get exposed to other views. Instead, they are led by the nose by two of the richest oligarch brothers in America through shadowy "grass roots" organizations that they fund from their Upper West Side penthouse in Manhattan, and they get them to vote against their own self-interests. They have an extreme hatred for heathcare.gov, even though they've never seen the website and objectively made up their minds. But that's just me.

Without a subsidy to jump start the investment needed in infra-structure, rural dwellers are going to wait a long, long time until the free market solution finally allows them access. Meanwhile, the urban dwellers have the advantage of the information economy, and they don't and society stratifies.

xDan

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ヽ( ㅇㅅㅇ)ﾉ ~!!

Bitcoin exists, therefore all is well with the world, and the libertarians and crypto anarchists can rest and watch with smug and knowing eyes from the distance as slowly, something amazing begins to happen...

Their once weak and needy offspring has now turned into a tough and resilient young adult, casting its eyes around for freakin' countries to conquer.

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

I love when people call a government that's gotten off to exactly the right foot for tyranny (throwing people in prison and/or killing them for mere possession of "illegal" arms) a failed state.

coincoin3

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Bitcoin does not rely on the government, a new invention and great money. I have always believed that.

amspir

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Quote from: Bit_Happy on March 28, 2014, 11:46:09 PM

Somalia is an example of post-Gov chaos, NOT a libertarian experiment.

Ah, so it doesn't fit the philosophies of extremist libertarian manifestos. In what ways has the failed state of Somalia differed in the practice of utopia-libertarianism? I honestly want to know.

Bit_Happy

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A Great Time to Start Something!

Quote from: amspir on March 28, 2014, 11:41:35 PM

Quote from: pungopete468 on March 28, 2014, 11:19:25 PM

Asking a person to describe "Utopia" for a diverse group of people like the Libertarian party is impossible. The differences between what two individuals consider Utopia can be very different.

Somalia is closer an an Anarchist utopia than a Libertarian utopia. The difference being that most Libertarians are moderates rather than Anarchists.

Good, you seem like a reasonable person with realistic ideas about changing our current system of government. I have some libertarian principles, by I would never be welcomed by the extremists that believe our government is sure to collapse in 2 years, and that bitcoin is going to completely destroy the USD. Instead, I invite them to set up shop in Somalia, where there exist no effective government, no taxes, no regulations, and lots and lots of guns.

Somalia is an example of post-Gov chaos/following civil war, NOT a libertarian experiment.
Nice to know you have "some libertarian principles"...
Perhaps someday you will be an actual libertarian?

amspir

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Quote from: pungopete468 on March 28, 2014, 11:19:25 PM

Asking a person to describe "Utopia" for a diverse group of people like the Libertarian party is impossible. The differences between what two individuals consider Utopia can be very different.

Somalia is closer an an Anarchist utopia than a Libertarian utopia. The difference being that most Libertarians are moderates rather than Anarchists.

Good, you seem like a reasonable person with realistic ideas about changing our current system of government. I have some libertarian principles, by I would never be welcomed by the extremists that believe our government is sure to collapse in 2 years, and that bitcoin is going to completely destroy the USD. Instead, I invite them to set up shop in Somalia, where there exist no effective government, no taxes, no regulations, and lots and lots of guns.

pungopete468

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Quote from: amspir on March 28, 2014, 09:06:43 PM

Quote from: pungopete468 on March 28, 2014, 08:40:16 PM

- No system of government will ever create wealth. Different governmental systems only protect the interests of different people. A Libertarian government affords little protection and favors an individuals right to choose for themselves. The protections afforded by other forms of governments come in the form of restrictions and have a high cost. The cost of regulation is a piece of freedom + the financial draw of regulatory oversight. Everybody is losing money just to protect a few people from themselves, essentially.

- The distribution of guns should not be "socialized" because that would imply that the guns weren't owned by the person carrying it. Guns should be owned diversely by society, if a warlord wants to steal your food supply then the people should outnumber the warlords... Allow the people equal access to power and the oppression will end. Gun ownership is power; think of Yin and Yang. The guns will exist and the power is real; the people deserve equal access to that power necessary to protect their lives and equalize the distribution of power. The force of the people should exceed the force of the government ALWAYS and at every point.

Are you then arguing that Somalia is or is not a libertarian utopia? I regard it as the closest thing in the world in this point and time. You are adding on to an argument in which the other poster doesn't believe it is because the people are poor and violent, and I am arguing that from a libertarian point of view, the absence of government and increased gun ownership solves these problems. However, I don't see many idealistic libertarians flocking to this paradise.

Asking a person to describe "Utopia" for a diverse group of people like the Libertarian party is impossible. The differences between what two individuals consider Utopia can be very different.

Somalia is closer an an Anarchist utopia than a Libertarian utopia. The difference being that most Libertarians are moderates rather than Anarchists.

A Utopia for me personally in the US would be when the Federal Government doesn't even attempt to blanket every State with the same ridiculous laws. The Federal Government should be limited to enforcing and overseeing the protocol that each State is required to follow. Many States have overwhelmingly different ideas about whats in the better interest of their State.

There can still be a central Federal Government and the congress of all 50 States can control the treasury and tax the States by population. The States would then collect sales taxes from the residents. Each State should be responsible for making its own laws, and international treaties should be ratified by 2/3 of congress. The Federal Government should not be allowed to have a standing army, no DHS, NSA, or any other

There should be no such thing as a victimless crime and people should have the ability to choose the type of life they wish to live while maintaining pride in a US citizenship... If you don't like the laws of your State you should be able to pick a State which better suits your desires and move there. The US was viewed as the last strong hold on Earth for Liberty, the Federal Government should not have the power to control the laws regarding citizens of all 50 States directly.

The Constitution of the United States used to be a list expressing the following: THE US STATE AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS CAN NOT TAKE THESE RIGHTS FROM YOU, CITIZENS.
Somehow it slowly turned into a list which expresses this: CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES CAN NOT DO THESE FOLLOWING THINGS.

The United States Constitution was never intended to be a document enumerating the powers of the US citizens. Had it been, there would be no need for individual State Constitutions... The Constitution was intended to limit the powers of the State and Federal Governments; not embolden them.

amspir

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Quote from: TheButterZone on March 28, 2014, 10:17:25 PM

You claim Somalia is a failed state with no effective government, yet you admit you haven't even been there. Those who have actually been there, reported from there, such as Unreported World's "The Master Chef of Mogadishu" crew, show Al Shabaab insurging against the government and trying to assassinate them, a government composed partially if not mostly of former ex-pats and refugees. Why would Al Shabaab insurge against a non-threat, non-effective government? Why would ex-pats and refugees return just to circlejerk and get suicide bombed? Why is Mogadishu Central Prison run, if not to lock people in?

How bloody effective does a government need to be before you stop saying it's not?

Just to be clear, we are talking about Al Shabaab that held control of Mogasihu only 3 years ago, until the predecessor of the currently anointed government (founded only in 2012) forced them out. So yes, 3 years of holding most of the capital city under regular attack from insurgent forces, but not the country, is a small start towards Somalian statism.

Topic: Rumors of Bitcoin's libertarian death have been greatly exaggerated. - page 2. (Read 4086 times)