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Topic: Run 'Round FINCEN Rules. Bitcoin Exchanges without Registering - page 2. (Read 4256 times)

sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 257
bluemeanie
If a person buys or sells bitcoins for dollars, they are supposed to register as a Money Transmitter. This is being applied to the average person even Foundations that do not angage in this, based on the associations of their members.

So, I propose nobody ever buys or sells bitcoins for dollars anymore. I propose we give them away for FREE whenever someone buys or sells a piece of blank paper, valued at approx the same price as bitcoins.

If someone is willing to buy my "pet rock" for $105.00, I'll include a FREE Bitcoin!



what if we buy and sell Magic Cards?  is that currency?
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 251
Actually, there's a mining union trying to get funded this way that has exactly this proposal: you fund them, and you get the share of the output for a whole year.  I'm tempted to throw a bitcoin their way, but they are asking for 10 BTC and no one has donated yet.  Anyone else interested in helping fund their project?  https://bitcoinstarter.com/projects/97

Or, you could just buy shares of ASICMiner and get paid dividends derived from the revenue that is generated with their mining operations and hardware sales.  Those shares don't expire after one year and are transferrable.

Back to the original topic...Selling digital artwork for fiat and giving away bitcoins as a free bonus may help you stay in compliance with FINCEN guidelines/regulations, but then the IRS bureaucrats will insist that Americans report those artwork sales as income.  I still think it's best to exchange your artwork for cash--the actual FRNs--and to transfer the free bitcoins to the buyer in a face-to-face transaction.  Transacting in electronic fiat just makes their job too easy with the surveillance apparatus that is in place.

The whole point of my post was not to avoid IRS taxes. That can be done lots of other ways.
The main point of this idea, is to keep average Joe from having to register as a Money Transmitter when he is just buying and selling bitcoins.
FINCEN regs would like to make it so everyone who transfers bitcoins, and accepts dollars, could be identified as a Money Transmitter.
But, if they are selling digital artwork and giving away FREE bitcoins with it, they are not selling Bitcoins for dollars, then there is NO Money Transmitting service provided.

As well, Paypal TOS claim they do not allow the sales of virtual currencies, for dollars.
A Physical Item MUST accompany the transaction, in order to avoid this. A Digital Artwork item fits that definition, and should work to keep paypal at bay.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin: The People's Bailout
Actually, there's a mining union trying to get funded this way that has exactly this proposal: you fund them, and you get the share of the output for a whole year.  I'm tempted to throw a bitcoin their way, but they are asking for 10 BTC and no one has donated yet.  Anyone else interested in helping fund their project?  https://bitcoinstarter.com/projects/97

Or, you could just buy shares of ASICMiner and get paid dividends derived from the revenue that is generated with their mining operations and hardware sales.  Those shares don't expire after one year and are transferrable.

Back to the original topic...Selling digital artwork for fiat and giving away bitcoins as a free bonus may help you stay in compliance with FINCEN guidelines/regulations, but then the IRS bureaucrats will insist that Americans report those artwork sales as income.  I still think it's best to exchange your artwork for cash--the actual FRNs--and to transfer the free bitcoins to the buyer in a face-to-face transaction.  Transacting in electronic fiat just makes their job too easy with the surveillance apparatus that is in place.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
Bingo!

This is a great idea. Reminds me of how they sell raw milk. Instead of selling you the milk, they sell you a share of the cow, and you get the milk from your own cow.

So to do this with bitcoin, the exchange sells them a portion of mining equipment for a specified time, and they get a share of the mining output during that specified time(bitcoin).

Whoa, great idea.  Lets call them Linden Cows

Actually, there's a mining union trying to get funded this way that has exactly this proposal: you fund them, and you get the share of the output for a whole year.  I'm tempted to throw a bitcoin their way, but they are asking for 10 BTC and no one has donated yet.  Anyone else interested in helping fund their project?  https://bitcoinstarter.com/projects/97
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
Bingo!

This is a great idea. Reminds me of how they sell raw milk. Instead of selling you the milk, they sell you a share of the cow, and you get the milk from your own cow.

So to do this with bitcoin, the exchange sells them a portion of mining equipment for a specified time, and they get a share of the mining output during that specified time(bitcoin).
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 251
The Pet Rock was a throwaway idea, for the thought. What we really need is a Digital Good, capable of being sold or transferred. It can be paired with bitcoin, and then all transactions are for that product, not the bitcoins. Could be a e-card or something like that. As long as Bitcoin itself is not the item being sold for dollars, then it can be used as a part of the transaction.

An e-card would be difficult to justify for such a large transaction though. Maybe if someone developed a simple piece of software around bitcoin, made it open source, allowed people to alter and update it, or it could be a simple program, with updates. It could potentially justify the sales transactions. In essence the software would be free, but people could charge any amount they want for it, and that is the product being traded between people, not the currency of bitcoin.

I have a feeling there are a lot of very artistic individuals in the bitcoin community.  Perhaps these Picassos could  create some artwork in Microsoft Paint.  The more fiat that someone is willing to pay for one of these digital masterpieces, then the more free bitcoins they could receive as a bonus.  Grin

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about!

Great Idea!

This will work great! (Or at least it should)

Now, you are not selling any bitcoins, PERIOD!!!

No FINCEN regs can apply anymore!!!

hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1000
Bitcoin: The People's Bailout
The Pet Rock was a throwaway idea, for the thought. What we really need is a Digital Good, capable of being sold or transferred. It can be paired with bitcoin, and then all transactions are for that product, not the bitcoins. Could be a e-card or something like that. As long as Bitcoin itself is not the item being sold for dollars, then it can be used as a part of the transaction.

An e-card would be difficult to justify for such a large transaction though. Maybe if someone developed a simple piece of software around bitcoin, made it open source, allowed people to alter and update it, or it could be a simple program, with updates. It could potentially justify the sales transactions. In essence the software would be free, but people could charge any amount they want for it, and that is the product being traded between people, not the currency of bitcoin.

I have a feeling there are a lot of very artistic individuals in the bitcoin community.  Perhaps these Picassos could create some artwork in Microsoft Paint.  The more fiat that someone is willing to pay for one of these digital masterpieces, then the more free bitcoins they could receive as a bonus.  Grin
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Drug dealer in this case == someone doing something that the gov has interests in regulating

If a drug dealer registers as a 'pharma services business', they turn into a pharmacy. Or something like that.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 251
It can be paired with bitcoin, and then all transactions are for that product, not the bitcoins. Could be a e-card or something like that.

Are you saying if someone sold you an iPhone and an ounce of weed for $100, they are not a drug dealer, just a lowly handset merchant?

Edit: I think drug dealers just be drug dealers and not worry about selling eg Amazon vouchers as well.

Bitcoin is not drugs and they are not illegal. This is only for the future event that FINCEN decides all transaction in bitcoins should be money service registered, when trading for dollars.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
It can be paired with bitcoin, and then all transactions are for that product, not the bitcoins. Could be a e-card or something like that.

Are you saying if someone sold you an iPhone and an ounce of weed for $100, they are not a drug dealer, just a lowly handset merchant?

Edit: I think drug dealers just be drug dealers and not worry about selling eg Amazon vouchers as well.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 251
If a person buys or sells bitcoins for dollars, they are supposed to register as a Money Transmitter. This is being applied to the average person even Foundations that do not angage in this, based on the associations of their members.

So, I propose nobody ever buys or sells bitcoins for dollars anymore. I propose we give them away for FREE whenever someone buys or sells a piece of blank paper, valued at approx the same price as bitcoins.

If someone is willing to buy my "pet rock" for $105.00, I'll include a FREE Bitcoin!


I completly ignore FINCEN regulations and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

lol I remember the "Pet Rocks" they were actually a thing when I was a kid and people used to actually buy them.

The Pet Rock was a throwaway idea, for the thought. What we really need is a Digital Good, capable of being sold or transferred. It can be paired with bitcoin, and then all transactions are for that product, not the bitcoins. Could be a e-card or something like that. As long as Bitcoin itself is not the item being sold for dollars, then it can be used as a part of the transaction.

An e-card would be difficult to justify for such a large transaction though. Maybe if someone developed a simple piece of software around bitcoin, made it open source, allowed people to alter and update it, or it could be a simple program, with updates. It could potentially justify the sales transactions. In essence the software would be free, but people could charge any amount they want for it, and that is the product being traded between people, not the currency of bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
If a person buys or sells bitcoins for dollars, they are supposed to register as a Money Transmitter. This is being applied to the average person even Foundations that do not angage in this, based on the associations of their members.

So, I propose nobody ever buys or sells bitcoins for dollars anymore. I propose we give them away for FREE whenever someone buys or sells a piece of blank paper, valued at approx the same price as bitcoins.

If someone is willing to buy my "pet rock" for $105.00, I'll include a FREE Bitcoin!


I completly ignore FINCEN regulations and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

lol I remember the "Pet Rocks" they were actually a thing when I was a kid and people used to actually buy them.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 257
bluemeanie
If a person buys or sells bitcoins for dollars, they are supposed to register as a Money Transmitter. This is being applied to the average person even Foundations that do not angage in this, based on the associations of their members.

So, I propose nobody ever buys or sells bitcoins for dollars anymore. I propose we give them away for FREE whenever someone buys or sells a piece of blank paper, valued at approx the same price as bitcoins.

If someone is willing to buy my "pet rock" for $105.00, I'll include a FREE Bitcoin!





what if you trade them for gold?
newbie
Activity: 52
Merit: 0
The only way that the authorities can control the Bitcoin was at the point of exchanges, I won't be surprise at their rules.
full member
Activity: 170
Merit: 102
could btc transactions be structured something like, the btc is free of charge, but i charge a ... usd "admin fee" per btc, or part thereof, to "guarantee" i will sent it from my wallet to yours ... ??

make the actual fiat value a "guarantee" of service, the service being delivery of a free bitcoin
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 251
If you're interested in legal loopholes...then here's something to think about : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-is-memory-234731

Don't just read the thread. Read the paper! Come to your own conclusions.



Yes, I made this argument a couple years ago, on these boards. I agree, it's Memory and not currency, but if the government wants to fuck with the definition of "currency", then they can try to. If it works for them, then all we have to do is "give them away FREE", with the purchase of something of (=) decided value.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
If you're interested in legal loopholes...

Also, infrequent traders (five times or less per year) not doing it for profit are not money transmitters (at least that's what might be deduced from U.S. federal law):

Limitation On MSB Regulations For Infrequent Trading
 - http://bitcoinmoney.com/post/52305091840
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
order in numbers
If you're interested in legal loopholes...then here's something to think about : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-is-memory-234731

Don't just read the thread. Read the paper! Come to your own conclusions.

legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1000
I doubt that would happen unless opening an account on LocalBitcoins and actively trading was transformed into a "cool" social activity (and not a nerdic activity).  A "hero of the revolution" or something.
I don't think that's impossible to achieve.

Not impossible.

Imagine thousands of people eager to be an Independent Bitcoin Mercenary.

Identified by a cool logo or graphic on their laptop computer, iPad, cap, or clothing.

Using the free Wifi at thousands of Starbucks, McDonald's, and other locations.

Conducting face-to-face transactions between Bitcoins and cash, with an aura of excitement and adventure.

With well-timed, discounted loss-leaders such as flash drives, android tablets, etc. that can only be purchased with Bitcoins.

Advertised via internet social media.






legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
I doubt that would happen unless opening an account on LocalBitcoins and actively trading was transformed into a "cool" social activity (and not a nerdic activity).  A "hero of the revolution" or something.
I don't think that's impossible to achieve.
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