SatoshiDICE.com - The World's Most Popular Bitcoin Game - page 233.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: MPOE-PR on October 30, 2012, 01:41:38 PM

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on October 30, 2012, 01:20:11 AM

Quote from: MPOE-PR on October 29, 2012, 05:48:42 PM

The somewhat concerning part of all this is that as money keeps getting passed back and forth all sums are eventually ground up into smaller and smaller bits until all satoshis are actually broken apart and travel independently (ie, all payments are actually made up of that many satoshi). What then, Satoshalipse?!

No. When a lot of inputs go to one output, they r combined into a big solid chunk of satoshis. Next transaction from the output address will have only 1 input.

Ah ok, thanks for that.

U should thank Satoshi for that Grin

MPOE-PR

hero member

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on October 30, 2012, 01:20:11 AM

Quote from: MPOE-PR on October 29, 2012, 05:48:42 PM

The somewhat concerning part of all this is that as money keeps getting passed back and forth all sums are eventually ground up into smaller and smaller bits until all satoshis are actually broken apart and travel independently (ie, all payments are actually made up of that many satoshi). What then, Satoshalipse?!

No. When a lot of inputs go to one output, they r combined into a big solid chunk of satoshis. Next transaction from the output address will have only 1 input.

Ah ok, thanks for that.

dooglus

legendary

Activity: 2940

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on October 30, 2012, 01:20:11 AM

Quote from: MPOE-PR on October 29, 2012, 05:48:42 PM

The somewhat concerning part of all this is that as money keeps getting passed back and forth all sums are eventually ground up into smaller and smaller bits until all satoshis are actually broken apart and travel independently (ie, all payments are actually made up of that many satoshi). What then, Satoshalipse?!

No. When a lot of inputs go to one output, they r combined into a big solid chunk of satoshis. Next transaction from the output address will have only 1 input.

That's correct. Here's an example - lots of inputs, many of which are small, and only 3 outputs, all of a reasonable size:
http://blockchain.info/tx-index/24440537

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: MPOE-PR on October 29, 2012, 05:48:42 PM

The somewhat concerning part of all this is that as money keeps getting passed back and forth all sums are eventually ground up into smaller and smaller bits until all satoshis are actually broken apart and travel independently (ie, all payments are actually made up of that many satoshi). What then, Satoshalipse?!

No. When a lot of inputs go to one output, they r combined into a big solid chunk of satoshis. Next transaction from the output address will have only 1 input.

MPOE-PR

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 522

Quote from: dooglus on October 29, 2012, 01:38:10 PM

The code that determines the 'required fee' is quite complex. It depends of a whole bunch of factors. 0.0005 is more than is required for some transactions, and much less than is required for others.

It would probably be worth checking that the included fee is sufficient (according the satoshi client's rules) before processing each bet, rather than using a hardcoded value like 0.0005 or 0.001 BTC.

Like deepceleron says, if I place a bet made up of lots of 1 satoshi pieces, the required fee will likely be substantially higher than 0.01 BTC.

The somewhat concerning part of all this is that as money keeps getting passed back and forth all sums are eventually ground up into smaller and smaller bits until all satoshis are actually broken apart and travel independently (ie, all payments are actually made up of that many satoshi). What then, Satoshalipse?!

dooglus

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Quote from: deepceleron on October 29, 2012, 10:48:31 AM

The required fee is 0.0005 per KB. If a gambler's bet is funded by many smaller payments, the transaction to send the payment may easily be more than 1 KB in size. Likewise, a winning payout back to a user, likely funded by many small payments from losers, also would need an appropriate fee related to it's data size.

The code that determines the 'required fee' is quite complex. It depends of a whole bunch of factors. 0.0005 is more than is required for some transactions, and much less than is required for others.

It would probably be worth checking that the included fee is sufficient (according the satoshi client's rules) before processing each bet, rather than using a hardcoded value like 0.0005 or 0.001 BTC.

Like deepceleron says, if I place a bet made up of lots of 1 satoshi pieces, the required fee will likely be substantially higher than 0.01 BTC.

deepceleron

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Quote from: fireduck on October 29, 2012, 09:52:43 AM

Quote from: dooglus on October 27, 2012, 08:45:07 PM

"either ... and ..." - not sure what that means.

I'm guessing what he meant to say is that bets aren't processed until they get into a block unless they have a fee of at least 0.001 included. But his statement could be clearer.

I'd suggest including a fee of 0.001 BTC with a bet and see if that gets things going fast for you again.

You are correct. It should have been either, or. I've been traveling and haven't had a chance to post until now. I've lowered the fee down to 0.0005 again and will see how that goes.

The required fee is 0.0005 per KB. If a gambler's bet is funded by many smaller payments, the transaction to send the payment may easily be more than 1 KB in size. Likewise, a winning payout back to a user, likely funded by many small payments from losers, also would need an appropriate fee related to it's data size.

This is the same factor that render's satoshidice user's wallet balance unspendable. After the wallet is full of .00000001 BTC losing confirmation payments, attempting to empty the wallet of these takes a considerable fee that is much higher than 0.0005 (or indeed the value of the dust in their wallet).

fireduck

sr. member

Activity: 392

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Quote from: dooglus on October 27, 2012, 08:45:07 PM

"either ... and ..." - not sure what that means.

I'm guessing what he meant to say is that bets aren't processed until they get into a block unless they have a fee of at least 0.001 included. But his statement could be clearer.

I'd suggest including a fee of 0.001 BTC with a bet and see if that gets things going fast for you again.

You are correct. It should have been either, or. I've been traveling and haven't had a chance to post until now. I've lowered the fee down to 0.0005 again and will see how that goes.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Anyone else still waiting on their bet?
Mine is sitting at "UNKNOWN" still and it's almost been 4 days since I made that bet..

Yes. I'm waiting for mine. 4 days already passed. I PMed Evoorhees regarding this issue, perhaps he is working hard to resolve it... Hahaha, of coz I don't think so...

JWU42

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Activity: 1666

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Quote from: dooglus on October 28, 2012, 02:01:37 PM

Quote from: JWU42 on October 27, 2012, 10:31:55 PM

Quote from: dooglus on October 27, 2012, 08:45:07 PM

I'd suggest including a fee of 0.001 BTC with a bet and see if that gets things going fast for you again.

Yep - need a .001 fee to get a "normal" response

That kind of makes sense.

If people are allowed to place bets with no fees, even when fees 'should' be included according to standard fee rules, the bet transaction will possibly take a long time to confirm. Then, when they lose and their bet amount is used to pay out other winners, the payment to the other winners won't confirm until all the amounts from losing bets have confirmed, due to how bitcoin works.

So the 0.001 fee is an attempt to make sure that all bets confirm in a reasonable amount of time.

It occurs to me that it might be a little overkill to insist on such a fee for all bets if you want 'instant' results when not all small transactions really require a fee at all if they're high enough priority, but still, it's only a cent, so I guess nobody's going to complain.

FWIW - I was using .0005 fee previously...

dooglus

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Quote from: JWU42 on October 27, 2012, 10:31:55 PM

Quote from: dooglus on October 27, 2012, 08:45:07 PM

I'd suggest including a fee of 0.001 BTC with a bet and see if that gets things going fast for you again.

Yep - need a .001 fee to get a "normal" response

That kind of makes sense.

If people are allowed to place bets with no fees, even when fees 'should' be included according to standard fee rules, the bet transaction will possibly take a long time to confirm. Then, when they lose and their bet amount is used to pay out other winners, the payment to the other winners won't confirm until all the amounts from losing bets have confirmed, due to how bitcoin works.

So the 0.001 fee is an attempt to make sure that all bets confirm in a reasonable amount of time.

It occurs to me that it might be a little overkill to insist on such a fee for all bets if you want 'instant' results when not all small transactions really require a fee at all if they're high enough priority, but still, it's only a cent, so I guess nobody's going to complain.

JWU42

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Activity: 1666

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Quote from: dooglus on October 27, 2012, 08:45:07 PM

I'd suggest including a fee of 0.001 BTC with a bet and see if that gets things going fast for you again.

Yep - need a .001 fee to get a "normal" response

dooglus

legendary

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Merit: 1333

Quote from: JWU42 on October 27, 2012, 07:07:14 PM

The weird part for me now is the return transaction now only occurs at each new block. It has been this way for the past 36 hours (+/-)...

Destroys the experience when you are waiting 10+ minutes between bets Wink

I'm guessing this is caused by fireduck's recent change, which he confusingly described as follows:

Quote

This check makes sure the bet is either confirmed and has a tx fee of at least 0.001

"either ... and ..." - not sure what that means.

I'm guessing what he meant to say is that bets aren't processed until they get into a block unless they have a fee of at least 0.001 included. But his statement could be clearer.

I'd suggest including a fee of 0.001 BTC with a bet and see if that gets things going fast for you again.

JWU42

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1000

The weird part for me now is the return transaction now only occurs at each new block. It has been this way for the past 36 hours (+/-)...

Destroys the experience when you are waiting 10+ minutes between bets Wink

evoorhees

legendary

Activity: 1008

Merit: 1023

Democracy is the original 51% attack

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: JWU42 on October 26, 2012, 04:06:56 PM

My blockchain.info transactions have been problematic the last 24 hours Sad

Same here, one of my bets has been stuck for over 24 hours now, sitting at UNKNOWN on SatoshiDice.

This has happened more than normal during the past few days since there have been so many winners it drew down the site's wallet which results in more "snags". So the good news for you all is that you're kicking the site's ass in terms of winnings recently Wink

JWU42

legendary

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1000

My blockchain.info transactions have been problematic the last 24 hours Sad

IXIslimIXI

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Activity: 117

Merit: 10

Quote from: Carnth on October 26, 2012, 12:28:37 PM

Quote from: Stephen Gornick on October 26, 2012, 12:49:50 AM

Quote from: fireduck on October 25, 2012, 05:19:40 PM

I've also re-enabled the isLegit check on incoming bets. This check makes sure the bet is either confirmed and has a tx fee of at least 0.001.

You used the word "etiher" and then "and".

Do wagers with a fee less than 0.001 BTC still get processed even if they have not yet been included in a block?

My personal experience (after the changes fireduck implemented):
I sent a 15.63 BTC bet, divided among 11 individual bets.

The 15.63 BTC already had 2 confirms went it was sent and had no fees.
After I sent the bet, it was "stalled." It did not show up on the Dice website and checking blockchain.info I could see that the bets were left "unspent."
After my 15.63 BTC bet was confirmed, the Dice website picked up my bet and processed it. At that point I could see that I rolled an 832 (damn lucky) and won all 11 of my bets.
A few of the winning bets showed up in my wallet.
After another block on the BTC network, a few more winning bets were returned.
It took a total of 5 blocks for all of my bets to be returned. I had to be patient, but I was paid back everything I was owed.

Quote from: IXIslimIXI on October 26, 2012, 01:05:01 AM

Would this change could be what caused my transactions to disappear and not payout?

I am also curious about this. I had sent many bets on Oct 23-24. Some bets had the fees included, some not. I had many many "UNKNOWN" bets waiting to be returned. Even so, some "UNKNOWN" bets were returned to my wallet but never confirmed, even after 20 hours. Then the next day, *poof* many of my bets (wins and losses) were just gone--even from the block chain. Was this a orphaned block (or several orphaned blocks)?

Glad I'm not the only one... I think some people on here thought I was just some guy who lost all my coins trying to get some freebies. lol

Most of the ones that are missing were winners and this equals up to several hundred dollars. *EDIT to remove unnecessary comments*

I hope other decide to step forward too.

What client were you using? Because I am being told that it is blockchain.info that caused the issue from a build up of non confirmed transactions.

Carnth

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Quote from: Stephen Gornick on October 26, 2012, 12:49:50 AM

Quote from: fireduck on October 25, 2012, 05:19:40 PM

I've also re-enabled the isLegit check on incoming bets. This check makes sure the bet is either confirmed and has a tx fee of at least 0.001.

You used the word "etiher" and then "and".

Do wagers with a fee less than 0.001 BTC still get processed even if they have not yet been included in a block?

My personal experience (after the changes fireduck implemented):
I sent a 15.63 BTC bet, divided among 11 individual bets.

The 15.63 BTC already had 2 confirms went it was sent and had no fees.
After I sent the bet, it was "stalled." It did not show up on the Dice website and checking blockchain.info I could see that the bets were left "unspent."
After my 15.63 BTC bet was confirmed, the Dice website picked up my bet and processed it. At that point I could see that I rolled an 832 (damn lucky) and won all 11 of my bets.
A few of the winning bets showed up in my wallet.
After another block on the BTC network, a few more winning bets were returned.
It took a total of 5 blocks for all of my bets to be returned. I had to be patient, but I was paid back everything I was owed.

Quote from: IXIslimIXI on October 26, 2012, 01:05:01 AM

Would this change could be what caused my transactions to disappear and not payout?

I am also curious about this. I had sent many bets on Oct 23-24. Some bets had the fees included, some not. I had many many "UNKNOWN" bets waiting to be returned. Even so, some "UNKNOWN" bets were returned to my wallet but never confirmed, even after 20 hours. Then the next day, *poof* many of my bets (wins and losses) were just gone--even from the block chain. Was this a orphaned block (or several orphaned blocks)?

IXIslimIXI

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Activity: 117

Merit: 10

Quote from: fireduck on October 25, 2012, 05:19:40 PM

I'm working on figuring out what is going on here. It seems like the bitcoin network is expecting higher fees. I've increased our base tx fee that we pay to 0.0010 from 0.0005. I've also re-enabled the isLegit check on incoming bets. This check makes sure the bet is either confirmed and has a tx fee of at least 0.001. It also traces it back to confirmed parent transactions. It isn't perfect and may delay some transactions that do eventually confirm but it should help up avoid doing payments of transactions that will never confirm so often.

I guess when you are creating 1.6 million transactions there are bound to be a few snags.

Thanks everyone for your patience. Mostly no one has heard from me in a while because things have been mostly running smoothly. Hopefully we can soon get back to that.

Would this change be what caused my transactions to disappear and not payout?

Stephen Gornick

legendary

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Quote from: fireduck on October 25, 2012, 05:19:40 PM

I've also re-enabled the isLegit check on incoming bets. This check makes sure the bet is either confirmed and has a tx fee of at least 0.001.

You used the word "etiher" and then "and".

Do wagers with a fee less than 0.001 BTC still get processed even if they have not yet been included in a block?

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