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Topic: Scaling Bitcoin. Is consensus achievable? - page 4. (Read 4041 times)

hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 25, 2016, 04:24:19 AM
#33
You Do understand that LN is offchain?
So whatever tokens is transferred around on LN is not really BTC.
Do you understand, that micropayment channels of which LN consists are opened by broadcasting an onchain transaction that locks BTC in the channel? So BTC transfered over LN are very real.
Moreover, LN requires users to freeze a lot of funds in channels. To be able to use a channel one needs to freeze much greater amount of funds than each payment. Therefore it's quite the opposite to fractional reserve banking.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 25, 2016, 04:10:04 AM
#32
But if the LN is deployed, it will almost certainly be based on a small number of big hubs.
These big hubs could mutiply the money in circulation in the same way that banks multiply the amount of dollar bills.
Namely, they would start issuing bitcoin IOUs and lend them to people, backed by a fractional reserve of bitcoins.
That is, the hub has 1000 actual BTC, but issues IOUs worth 5000 BTC.

The hubs would extend the LN protocol to let clients use those IOUs for payments (much as people today use checks and bank wires as equivalent alternatives to cash).
Clients would even be able to redeem the IOUs for real BTC; the hubs would be betting that only a small fraction of the clients would redeem at the same time.

Elaborate please. How exactly a hub could start issuing IOUs on LN? Don't be afraid to go deep in technical details. Your links lead to questions from technical unsavvy users, which are afraid of LN because they don't understand how it works.

You Do understand that LN is offchain?
So whatever tokens is transferred around on LN is not really BTC.

 Cool

FYI:
https://lightning.network/lightning-network-summary.pdf
Quote
Scalability.
The bitcoin network will need to support orders of magnitude higher transaction volume to meet demand
from automated payments. The coming increase in internet-connected devices needs a platform for
machine-to-machine payments and automated micropayment services.
Lightning Network transactions are conducted off the blockchain without delegation of trust and ownership, allowing users to conduct nearly unlimited transactions
between other devices
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 25, 2016, 03:55:30 AM
#31
But if the LN is deployed, it will almost certainly be based on a small number of big hubs.
These big hubs could mutiply the money in circulation in the same way that banks multiply the amount of dollar bills.
Namely, they would start issuing bitcoin IOUs and lend them to people, backed by a fractional reserve of bitcoins.
That is, the hub has 1000 actual BTC, but issues IOUs worth 5000 BTC.

The hubs would extend the LN protocol to let clients use those IOUs for payments (much as people today use checks and bank wires as equivalent alternatives to cash).
Clients would even be able to redeem the IOUs for real BTC; the hubs would be betting that only a small fraction of the clients would redeem at the same time.

Elaborate please. How exactly a hub could start issuing IOUs on LN? Don't be afraid to go deep in technical details. Your links lead to questions from technical unsavvy users, which are afraid of LN because they don't understand how it works.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 25, 2016, 03:38:09 AM
#30
Here you go.   Smiley

Others have also made this connection.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/56ehi1/fractional_reserve_on_lightning_network/
Quote
But if the LN is deployed, it will almost certainly be based on a small number of big hubs.
These big hubs could mutiply the money in circulation in the same way that banks multiply the amount of dollar bills.
Namely, they would start issuing bitcoin IOUs and lend them to people, backed by a fractional reserve of bitcoins.
That is, the hub has 1000 actual BTC, but issues IOUs worth 5000 BTC.

The hubs would extend the LN protocol to let clients use those IOUs for payments (much as people today use checks and bank wires as equivalent alternatives to cash).
Clients would even be able to redeem the IOUs for real BTC; the hubs would be betting that only a small fraction of the clients would redeem at the same time.

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-December/000400.html
Quote
If we could lower the capital requirement, we'd lower the barrier for
people wishing to run a Lightning Network node.

Here are some thoughts:
   - The trust-based system you're proposing looks like a
   fractional-reserve banking system.
   - Such fractional-reserve hubs will provide lower transaction fees
   (because of lower capital requirements) — so the idea is worth pursuing.

http://www.wallstreettechnologist.com/2016/10/03/lightning-network-will-it-save-bitcoin-or-break-it/
Quote
for instance, if you are a large hub, with lots of capital but with many many connections to individual users and businesses, this means that everyone would want to route payments through you because less hops means less fees. If you had to open up channels by putting matching amounts of your money in with every other user, then this would be a limiting factor. (as you would have to have 100% reserve amounts for all your channels) and inefficient as a whole as the network would require 2 dollars locked up in order to send every 1 dollar.

Instead you only open up channels where the depositor puts in funds. The hub then credits their account balance with that amount. When they are paid money by other parties, the hub just increases the balance by that amount, they don’t actually move the money through a LN channel. This can be done as long as the payee is also another client of the same hub. When a client wants to withdraw, only then do they open up a withdraw LN channel to the client which they can pull money back out. This way the hub only locks up their own funds only when clients withdraw, which most of the time, will be minimal as long as people continue to use the same hub.

When a hub grows large enough, it will start opening bidirectional channels to other large hubs. If they trust each other enough, then they start crediting each other in IOUs instead of real payment channels.
You can end up with a fractional banking system existing as long as hubs trust each other to make good on their promises to pay each other back, and no crisis of confidence happens that causes a bank run.

 Cool

FYI:
If you open a bank , everyone knows you are doing a fractional, BTC was created to get away from those shenanigans, and defaults that occurs
because of the way fractional reserves operate.  At some point their will be a bank run, it is never an if , but a when.
Latest example of fractional reserves in Crypto was Cryptsy and you see how well that worked out.  Tongue

FYI2:   http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-23/fractional-reserve-banking-pure-fraud-part-i
Quote
This is a commentary which should never have needed to be written.
What is euphemistically called “fractional-reserve banking” is obvious fraud, and obvious crime.
By its very definition, it transforms the banking sector of an economy into a leveraged Ponzi-scheme, and as with all Ponzi-schemes, there is no possible “happy ending” here.
Quote
Fractional-reserve banking evolved literally based upon the temptation of all bankers to perpetrate fraud.
Empirically it has always been observed, down through the centuries, that under normal circumstances, only a tiny percentage of depositors will come to claim their cash/wealth at any one time.
Thus the temptation is for bankers to “lend” more funds than they actually possess, i.e. they are “lending” what does not even exist: “fractional-reserve banking” – the ultimate euphemism of banking and fraud.

It goes without saying that anyone or any entity which endeavours to “lend” something which does not exist is perpetrating fraud.
But before examining this inherent fraud more closely, it is important to back-up, and look at the Law.
Note that even when banks “lend” the money which they actually do hold on deposit (as trustees for the depositors) that this is already wholly/totally illegal.
It is the crime known as“conversion”.

Criminal conversion:
A person who knowingly or intentionally exerts unauthorized control over property of another person commits criminal conversion.


When your bank lends-out money you deposited, which it claims to be “holding” for you as trustee, does it seek your prior authorization before lending-out your property and thus putting it at risk? Of course not. The banks get around the naked criminality of their lending operations through general authorization. In the small-print of any/all bank deposit contracts is a clause whereby the depositor “authorizes” the bank to lend-out their property to Third Parties.
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 25, 2016, 02:50:26 AM
#29
Whether anyone believes it or not , LN will open the door to Fractional Reserve Banking with BTC.
I don't see any relation between LN and fractional reserve banking. What prevents fractional reserve banking from working with plain old BTC?
Let's consider a simple example, tomorrow you open a Fractional Reserve Bank which borrows and lends BTC. You don't use LN. To attract investors you offer them a small interest.
Say Alice lends 100 BTC to your bank. The next day you lend that 100 BTC to Bob, who spends them to buy something from Carol. Carol in turn lends that 100 BTC to your bank again. Another day Dave borrows the same 100 BTC from your bank and buys something from Eve, who again lends them to your bank. Now you have 300 BTC of liabilities but you have priv keys to only 100 BTC. If for example Alice decides to close her deposit ahead of time, you will be able to pay her, but if Carol or Eve decides to do the same, and your debtors didn't yet return most of their debt you are bankrupt.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
November 24, 2016, 08:39:54 PM
#28
We live in a profit driven world, and politics is no exception.

Sometimes it seems like it.  However, we live in a world full of humans, and unfortunately humans are very good at making financially horrible decisions for emotional reasons.  I see it happen all the time.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 24, 2016, 08:31:26 PM
#27
After closer look at LN,

LN is Offchain Transactions ,

Whether anyone believes it or not , LN will open the door to Fractional Reserve Banking with BTC.
Not at 1st , LN will not dare use FRB in the beginning , however as time progress and their use grows, it will become too temping to resist.

They will monitor the network and calculate how many BTC are kept off the blockchain at a given time
to come to a ratio like LN holds 3 Fake BTC verses 1 real BTC or even a dynamic ratio that changes with market conditions.

Looks like Snidely Whiplash has made his inroads into BTC with LN.  Tongue


Sidenote:
LN could increase the fees needed to go on the block chain as a way, to make sure the majority never cause a Bank Run.
Quote
A bank run (also known as a run on the bank) occurs when, in a fractional-reserve banking system (where banks normally only keep a small proportion of their assets as cash), a large number of customers withdraw cash from deposit accounts with a financial institution at the same time because they believe that the financial institution is, or might become, insolvent; and keep the cash or transfer into other assets, such as government bonds, precious metals or stones. When they transfer funds to another institution it may be characterised as a capital flight. As a bank run progresses, it generates its own momentum: as more people withdraw cash, the likelihood of default increases, triggering further withdrawals. This can destabilize the bank to the point where it runs out of cash and thus faces sudden bankruptcy.[1] To combat a bank run, a bank may limit how much cash each customer may withdraw, suspend withdrawals altogether, or promptly acquire more cash from other banks or from the central bank, besides other measures.

A Bank Run on BTC as it is now is impossible because their is no fractional reserves, everyone owns the full amount of their balance.
With LN , a bank run in the future becomes a real possibility.

BTC was an escape from fractional reserve banking, LN will end that.  Tongue


 Cool
legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
November 24, 2016, 05:51:54 PM
#26

What profit could core team derive from insisting on segwit acceptance without increasing blocksize?

Who can profit from deadlocking Bitcoin community in current state?
And (a rhetorical question) how many orders of magnitude of profit (how many zeros) could all parties gain from resolving this dispute one way or another?

segwit is to push for offchain, which is where LN hubs (bank2.0) make profit from permission transactions (hub dual-authorises with customer and takes a fee for the privilege)

those coding LN are already conceptualising a 0.0006($4+) prepay buyin/deposit just to use LN to ensure the hub gets paid. even if the customers dont use it theres a penalty fee, if the customer closes channel early theres a penalty fee.

all explained here (cant be bothered to repeat it all)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.16925401
basically $4 buyin and only works out cheaper if in a 10day lockin the user does hundreds-thousands of transactions
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 24, 2016, 05:23:52 PM
#25
This stopped being a technical battle (and became a political battle) long ago.
We live in a profit driven world, and politics is no exception. So what profit, if any, could big blockists derive from blocking segwit?
What profit could core team derive from insisting on segwit acceptance without increasing blocksize?

Who can profit from deadlocking Bitcoin community in current state?
And (a rhetorical question) how many orders of magnitude of profit (how many zeros) could all parties gain from resolving this dispute one way or another?
legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
November 24, 2016, 02:49:24 PM
#24
seems someone is mentioning the bankers and XT, classic and blockstream

hmm..


hint: "bait and switch"

i require no interaction from that person nor response. i will just leave this here for anyone to work out in their own time what it is hinting

i will just mention that tarring BU with the same brush is a bit pathetic right now. because strange as it is. its actually been blockstream, employee's and fans that have been demanding BU fork off.

if only people learn what consensus meant. they would understand the debate better.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
November 24, 2016, 01:39:34 PM
#23
I suspect that the majority of Bitcoin related companies wish to stay neutral in the scaling debate, and will not have a strong opinion one way or another, or at least not a strong public opinion.

What, the same way that Xapo, Coinbase, Circle, Bitpay and all the other bankster affiliated companies pushed as hard as they could for XT and Classic? Please Roll Eyes


As we saw with the ETH HF, many exchanges will likely support both branches of a HF to allow them to reap additional trading fees for trades between the two branches. There are however certain technical aspects of Bitcoin that will likely result in the failure of a minority branch of a HF that does not exist with ETH -- long difficulty recalculation time, long block maturity, and currently full blocks.

How is that in any way relevant? The Ethereum hardfork(s) didn't program the fork in a way that literally commandeers the whole ETH network. Classic, XT and BU all programmed their fork in an "all or nothing" fashion. Your point is pointless.

also, I do not think that I have seen any Bitcoin related company (with the exception of blockstream) that opposed any of the major HF proposals (XT/classic/BU/ect.) -- the only *real* opposition to any of XT/classic/Bu that I have seen has been from blockstream, and their employees, and the majority of the Bitcoin economy did show their support for XT (via their support for BIP101).

You're absolutely full of it.

If support from real Bitcoin users was in favour of BIP101, then what happened? And if real people don't support the Bitcoin Core roadmap, how is it that Bitcoin Core consistently gets such overwhelming adoption when a new version is released, and when these so-called "user supported" forks are released, they get overwhelmingly drubbed?


You're a liar, Quickseller, as has been pointed out on many occasions by others
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
November 24, 2016, 01:21:34 PM
#22
IMO:
1) [...]Contentious hardfork isn't an option it would be disastrous.
The more I think about this, the more I disagree with this statement.

For the most part, Bitcoin related companies will adopt whatever the network adopts. Even if a Bitcoin related company does not actively wish for a particular change to the protocol, if there is a significant enough chance that a change will be made, then the Bitcoin related companies will prepare to accept such changes. If a change to the protocol is made and a Bitcoin company is not prepared, then such companies will be unable to use Bitcoin until they can adopt to the new protocol, and miss out on potential business in the meantime.

I suspect that the majority of Bitcoin related companies wish to stay neutral in the scaling debate, and will not have a strong opinion one way or another, or at least not a strong public opinion.

As we saw with the ETH HF, many exchanges will likely support both branches of a HF to allow them to reap additional trading fees for trades between the two branches. There are however certain technical aspects of Bitcoin that will likely result in the failure of a minority branch of a HF that does not exist with ETH -- long difficulty recalculation time, long block maturity, and currently full blocks.

Also, I do not think that I have seen any Bitcoin related company (with the exception of blockstream) that opposed any of the major HF proposals (XT/classic/BU/ect.) -- the only *real* opposition to any of XT/classic/Bu that I have seen has been from blockstream, and their employees, and the majority of the Bitcoin economy did show their support for XT (via their support for BIP101).
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
November 24, 2016, 12:28:01 PM
#21
Isn't it time now to listen to each other, understand and come to a compromise?

You don't work on full node, isn't it ?



No compromise.
Bitcoin network is made to work at home.
It's a decentralized network.
Miners are not the network.

If professionnal want a lightining network, they must build their server over the Bitcoin timelined blockchain.
With Segwit hub.




Bandwidth, time and ... storage.

Remember ... ?
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
November 24, 2016, 12:23:03 PM
#20
This stopped being a technical battle (and became a political battle) long ago.  At this point, it sure seems like consensus is impossible, at least until someone comes along that can change the conversation.  As long as there are a significant number of people on either side that feel like they've "failed" if the "other side gets what they want", consensus will be impossible (as there will be a significant number of people that will try to outlast the "other side" and force them to give up).

"Do it my way, or I'll destroy us both" can be a very effective strategy if one side is significantly more committed to their beliefs and would rather have the whole thing come tumbling down than let "the other guy win".  But if both sides have enough people that feel that way, the end result can be stagnation for a VERY long time.

For that matter, it is entirely possible that there is an influential group of individuals that want bitcoin to fail and believe they can eventually crash the value of bitcoin by holding out against BOTH sides.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1074
November 24, 2016, 11:55:06 AM
#19
Have you considered that the " 60000/50MB unconfirmed transactions " have been artificially been created by someone to rush the

decision? We have seen this before, with the Core/XT battle. People spam the Blockchain over time, to create the perception that there

are a congestion problem. It costs them a ton of money, but they do these supposed "stress tests" any way.  Roll Eyes ... Smoke & Mirrors

..  Tongue
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 24, 2016, 10:11:30 AM
#18
More Transactions will take more space , no way around that.
LN
That is why there should be a max cap on the size of the Block.
With a hard cap and LN running over your chain, your coin is always prone to scenario described in the article you mentioned. Doesn't matter how big your blocks are: 2, 8 or even 20 MB, if Bitcoin goes mainstream, there could be an equilibrium when blocks are mostly full, say they are 90% full on average. Then, if too many LN channels will need to be closed simultaneously It will lead to failure, as described in the article. Blocksize needs to be dynamic. Blocks need to be stretchable, so that the chain is able to digest such sudden influx of transactions.
That's unless you imply there is a mechanism to keep your hard capped blocks half-empty most of time, in which case we are talking about more or less the same thing.
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 24, 2016, 09:37:33 AM
#17
I think if their are over 2000 transactions in a queue and the miner only mines a block with 1 transaction, yes I would penalize him for wasting capacity,
but that is not my call and just my personal opinion.
You need to prove blockchainwise that the transactions were broadcasted before the block was mined. Additionally, what if our miner had network outage and didn't receive some transactions? I can't see how such penalizing system could be set up.

Majority of BTC users are letting someone else maintain their BTC wallets, the few that don't , will not lose anything if they are not mining.
(They will update when their old wallet does not work.)
How technical unsavvy user can tell whether his wallet works or not? Also, in the case of hardfork it's likely that there will remain at least several old nodes running worldwide, they will still function as if there was no fork, except new blocks will be very rarely found. Also, given present degree of discord, I would expect that there will remain may be small but frenetic group of original chain supporters.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 24, 2016, 08:36:30 AM
#16
Also for all you know they have more mining capacity of the other Algo too.
What do you mean by "the other Algo"? I know many other algos, and much more could be "invented".
If Miners don't keep up with the updates , that is on them, you can not hold back an entire community because one guy won't watch the news or check an email.
Otherwise we all still be living in caves.[/color]
I guess you mentioned miners because the original chain needs to be mined, in order for our unaware user to receive the payment. You don't need many of them however, 1 block in several hours could be enough, users need not to be technical savvy.

Whatever Algo you come up with Scrypt, or X15 , odds are the Chinese (Largest Manufacturing Industry in the world) will be able to make more cheaper.
The only thing they can't dominate is Proof of Stake, which is why Theymos was trying to get a DPoS added to BTC PoW.

Majority of BTC users are letting someone else maintain their BTC wallets, the few that don't , will not lose anything if they are not mining.
(They will update when their old wallet does not work.)
If they are mining they should be keeping up with Github and BTC core.

 Cool

FYI:
One Point to be clear on, if the Chinese Mining Pools refuse to update, since they have over 51% of the BTC mining,
No Changes can happen unless they agree to it. So no mater what we or BTC core decides , the final decision will be theirs to make.
Which is why Segwit will most likely fail unless they change their minds to support it.

Correction: There is one way to take the Choice away from the Mining Pools,
a Hard Fork to a completely 100% Proof of Stake coin, this puts the power directly in the hands of the coin owners and not the ASICS Owners.
Doubtful a PoW mining coin community would do that.

legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 24, 2016, 08:30:01 AM
#15
I would not penalize the Miner that used the Larger Blocks, he is actually doing the network a better service.
It's easy to DoS your Bitcoin then, especially if you are a miner. Just send tons of transactions to yourself, pay fees to yourself, make 20 GB blocks. Bloat the chain.
it should be the miner that only adds a few transactions , because he basically wasted the capacity of that block when the queue transactions are over 2000.
What if there are just few unconfirmed transactions around? Are you going to penalize a miner who includes them in a block?

That is why there should be a max cap on the size of the Block.
They need to pick a size between 2MB & 8MB for the Block size.
(You can get the same 8X increase, if you increase the block size to 8MB or increase the block size to 2 MB and decrease the Block Speed to 2.5 minutes.)
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.16975239

Chain Bloat is actually a separate issue and needs to have a separate answer.
More Transactions will take more space , no way around that.
Pruning was 1 option, for that issue. However a Running Genesis Block that dropped off the transactions that are over 7 years old would be my choice.

I think if their are over 2000 transactions in a queue and the miner only mines a block with 1 transaction, yes I would penalize him for wasting capacity,
but that is not my call and just my personal opinion.

 Cool
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 24, 2016, 08:18:03 AM
#14
Also for all you know they have more mining capacity of the other Algo too.
What do you mean by "the other Algo"? I know many other algos, and much more could be "invented".
If Miners don't keep up with the updates , that is on them, you can not hold back an entire community because one guy won't watch the news or check an email.
Otherwise we all still be living in caves.[/color]
I guess you mentioned miners because the original chain needs to be mined, in order for our unaware user to receive the payment. You don't need many of them however, 1 block in several hours could be enough, users need not to be technical savvy.
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