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Topic: Scaling Bitcoin. Is consensus achievable? - page 5. (Read 4055 times)

hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 24, 2016, 08:09:20 AM
#13
I would not penalize the Miner that used the Larger Blocks, he is actually doing the network a better service.
It's easy to DoS your Bitcoin then, especially if you are a miner. Just send tons of transactions to yourself, pay fees to yourself, make 20 GB blocks. Bloat the chain.
it should be the miner that only adds a few transactions , because he basically wasted the capacity of that block when the queue transactions are over 2000.
What if there are just few unconfirmed transactions around? Are you going to penalize a miner who includes them in a block?
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 24, 2016, 07:53:52 AM
#12
Example:
BTC is the Foundation of Building
SegWit , the 1st floor, and LN the Skyscraper on top of it,
If BTC crumbles because it can't handle the stress, SegWit & LN are going to come crashing down on top of it.  Tongue
That's why it's better to ponder the bigger blocks hardfork very well before implementing it. Bitcoin needs dynamic blocksize to be able to handle LN failure mode described in the article. There are some solutions proposed, for instance Meni Rosenfeld's.

Problem is not enough transactions capacity, personally I would not penalize the Miner that used the Larger Blocks, he is actually doing the network a better service.
If anyone had to be penalized , it should be the miner that only adds a few transactions , because he basically wasted the capacity of that block when the queue transactions are over 2000.

Just put a limit on the max size of the blocks, because internet bandwith and communications with other nodes is going to be a limiting factor on block size.
(Unlimited block size without unlimited Bandwith, is not going to work well.)

It is not like BTC core can't set up a testnet and test which block sizes work best with nodes of varying bandwidth to determine a maximum size limit.
(As the internet improves and demands increase , they can reevaluate at those times)

 Cool
legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
November 24, 2016, 07:51:16 AM
#11
firstly although segwit increases the amount of possible future BLOAT (megabytes of data) to 4mb.. the UTILITY!!!! of that bloat is not 4x capacity/scalability

what has been asked by the community is the UTILITY of the blocksize to increase.

so while core thinks 4mb is safe bloat.. then the obvious action is
2mb base 4mb weight to get proper UTILITY of the blocksize and segwit both at same time

we all know that core want 1.8mb for complete transaction data, and call that the compromise. but that 2.2mb of spare buffer will be used for arbitrary data for other features, and not lean clean transactions.

core havnt even bothered to put in rules to stop people writing messages in the transactions. meaning that 2.2mb a block could end up being filled up with crappy messages.

if core stopped with the "it takes months to announce a consensus" yet they themselves made an october announcement for a mid november pool consensus with hopes for activation by christmas!!!

now here is the trick..
go back to last years "promises" made at the scaling bitcoin. where dynamic blocks were part of the segwit plan.

that way everyone is happy
not this bait and switch
here have 4mb ... but have it as:
Xmb base Xmb weight dynamically adaptable via consensus
beginning with default of 2mb base 4mb weight for clean, lean transactions and only 0.4mb for arbitrary bloat

NOT

1mb base(limit scaling)+0.8mb witness(move signatures as 'compromise' side effect one time increase)+2.2mb arbitrary data(bloat)=4mb weight

that way everyone is happy
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 24, 2016, 07:44:10 AM
#10
Nope,
Reason:
It has to be close to 70% to make sure your network is still secure, otherwise the other group can 51% attack you all day and block all transactions.
ETC is still alive despite they had maybe 10% of the prefork hashpower. Also, if your hardfork is such a minority fork, you can change PoW algo.

I doubt anyone wants to have wasted all of the money spent on ASICS.
Also for all you know they have more mining capacity of the other Algo too.
FYI: Message on Poloniex   (Safer with 70%)  Wink
ETC withdrawal and deposits are disabled due to network issues.
Posted by OldManKidd at 2016-11-24 02:04:11


Make a Big Press Release , Call the Largest Mining Pools by Phone to confirm they are ready.
Trying to make out like a hard fork is so hard is BS, it is not.
Make some phone calls, send some email, or even broadcast a alert message out to all wallets, it ain't hard.
Imagine a user who doesn't follow all this mess. He turns on his client say a month after the fork to receive a payment but receives worthless original chain coins. He won't be able to spend them, unless he finds somebody as unaware as he is.

If Miners don't keep up with the updates , that is on them, you can not hold back an entire community because one guy won't watch the news or check an email.
Otherwise we all still be living in caves.


 Cool
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 24, 2016, 07:31:16 AM
#9
Nope,
Reason:
It has to be close to 70% to make sure your network is still secure, otherwise the other group can 51% attack you all day and block all transactions.
ETC is still alive despite they had maybe 10% of the prefork hashpower. Also, if your hardfork is such a minority fork, you can change PoW algo.

Make a Big Press Release , Call the Largest Mining Pools by Phone to confirm they are ready.
Trying to make out like a hard fork is so hard is BS, it is not.
Make some phone calls, send some email, or even broadcast a alert message out to all wallets, it ain't hard.
Imagine a user who doesn't follow all this mess. He turns on his client say a month after the fork to receive a payment but receives worthless original chain coins. He won't be able to spend them, unless he finds somebody as unaware as he is.
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 24, 2016, 07:16:38 AM
#8
Example:
BTC is the Foundation of Building
SegWit , the 1st floor, and LN the Skyscraper on top of it,
If BTC crumbles because it can't handle the stress, SegWit & LN are going to come crashing down on top of it.  Tongue
That's why it's better to ponder the bigger blocks hardfork very well before implementing it. Bitcoin needs dynamic blocksize to be able to handle LN failure mode described in the article. There are some solutions proposed, for instance Meni Rosenfeld's.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 24, 2016, 07:11:54 AM
#7
You only need ~70% of the hash to have a successful hard fork, so it is odd SegWit is pushed for more.
Hardforks don't depend on hashpower, you can hardfork off Bitcoin with 1% of hashpower, provided that your hardfork will include difficulty adjustment algo change (otherwise it will take forever to mine several hundreds of blocks for next difficulty adjustment).

If you don't care about users, who can miss your announcement, forget to upgrade their software, then indeed
A Hard Fork is no Big Deal, Schedule the update a few weeks later after the software is ready .


Nope,
Reason:
It has to be close to 70% to make sure your network is still secure, otherwise the other group can 51% attack you all day and block all transactions.

Make a Big Press Release , Call the Largest Mining Pools by Phone to confirm they are ready.
Trying to make out like a hard fork is so hard is BS, it is not.
Make some phone calls, send some email, or even broadcast a alert message out to all wallets, it ain't hard.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=898.0;all

 Cool
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 24, 2016, 07:06:23 AM
#6
Yes, but Segwit increases the blocksize anyway. Which appears to be your point "blocksize needs an increase". Seems like a circular argument to me.

Quote
One of its many technical improvements is the ability to fit almost 2MB of transactions per block. Many estimates put the total block size, with SegWit, at about 1.7mb.

1.  2mb is higher the 1.7mb (And that is only a doubling of current transaction limits)

2. The Mining Pools have stated they are blocking segwit.
After 1 year if 95% have not updated Segwit Officially Fails

(Unless you can force the Mining Pools to update, segwit is probably not going to happen.)

Hard fork does not require 95% , only ~70% would be enough and the pools are already wanting to increase the size.
Plus Segwit and LN will fail, if the underlying BTC network can not keep up with transactions.

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/here-s-how-bitcoin-s-lightning-network-could-fail-1467736127
Quote
The Lightning Network’s Failure Mode

The Lightning Network failure scenario described by Todd, takes place when a large number of people on the Bitcoin network need to settle their Lightning Network disputes on the blockchain in a relatively short period of time.

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/here-s-how-bitcoin-s-lightning-network-could-fail-1467736127
“We do have a failure mode which is: Imagine a whole bunch of these [settlements] have to happen at once,” Todd explained. “There’s only so much data that can go through the bitcoin network and if we had a large number of Lightning channels get closed out very rapidly, how are we going to get them all confirmed? At some point, you run out of capacity.”

In a scenario where a large number of people need to settle their Lightning contracts on the blockchain, the price for doing so could increase substantially as the available space in bitcoin blocks becomes sparse. “At some point some people start losing out because the cost is just higher than what they can afford,” Todd said. “If you have a very large percentage of the network using Lightning, potentially this cost is very high. Potentially, we could get this mass outbreak of failure.”

No matter if SegWit & LN is activated next week, segwit will not give a 8X increase like my example, so it will likely crash within a year or two, unless the underlying structure is able to handle the load.

Example:
BTC is the Foundation of Building
SegWit , the 1st floor, and LN the Skyscraper on top of it,
If BTC crumbles because it can't handle the stress, SegWit & LN are going to come crashing down on top of it.  Tongue

 Cool
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 24, 2016, 07:01:34 AM
#5
You only need ~70% of the hash to have a successful hard fork, so it is odd SegWit is pushed for more.
Hardforks don't depend on hashpower, you can hardfork off Bitcoin with 1% of hashpower, provided that your hardfork will include difficulty adjustment algo change (otherwise it will take forever to mine several hundreds of blocks for next difficulty adjustment).

If you don't care about users, who can miss your announcement, forget to upgrade their software, then indeed
A Hard Fork is no Big Deal, Schedule the update a few weeks later after the software is ready .
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 253
November 24, 2016, 06:59:50 AM
#4
i guess there are different people with different aims involved. many have invested a large sum of money and they want to make money with bitcoin so they push in the most profitable direction and that is not what is best for the technology. i would prefer to see a good solution so that bitcoin is technological in a solid position. even if this means a huge price fall. easy for me to say as i am not invested to much in it. but i think it would be the smart thing to do if you have the long perspective in mind. i do not see this happening, so a crooked compromise that still works will probably be it. still better then a couple of different bitcoin version due to forks.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3083
November 24, 2016, 06:47:31 AM
#3
Yes, but Segwit increases the blocksize anyway. Which appears to be your point "blocksize needs an increase". Seems like a circular argument to me.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 24, 2016, 06:46:07 AM
#2
hero member
Activity: 572
Merit: 506
November 24, 2016, 05:53:44 AM
#1
At the time of this post there are about 60000/50MB unconfirmed transactions, total fees are about 100 BTC/24h. Meanwhile average Segwit support per last 144 blocks is around 20%.
We've heard arguments from both sides. Isn't it time now to listen to each other, understand and come to a compromise?
All of us want the same: growth of Bitcoin adoption.

Core team, your opinion, decisions have the heaviest weight. You are the smartest among opposing groups (I indeed think so). But don't you think that if you concede that Bitcoin needs bigger blocks, and that at least one hardfork is inevitable, it will lead to reconciliation and perhaps even acceptance of segwit as a softfork, do you?

Bigger blocks group, it's in your power to block segwit. But don't you think that if you indeed do so, you will strangle Bitcoin and all your investments in mining hardware and in Bitcoin will become worthless?

Currently segwit is the shortest path to increasing Bitcoin throughput. A hardfork needs to be well thought over and announced several months before taking effect. Let's be honest, it won't happen sooner than a year from now.

IMO:
1) There is no way of scaling Bitcoin short term except adopting segwit. Contentious hardfork isn't an option it would be disastrous.
2) Whether or not Segwit will be adopted in it's current form, Bitcoin needs bigger blocks. If we aim at going mainstream, 1MB isn't enough in spite of Segwit, LN, whatever. I beleive even 8MB would still be handleable for Bitcoin enthusiasts running full nodes, not to mention bigger entities such mining pools. I however hope that a solution for dynamic blocksize will be found, which will satisfy all parties.
3) Average total fees per block must remain much lower than block subsidy for more than a decade from now, because of mining energy consumption:
However, we can estimate Bitcoin mining power consumption in 12 years, provided that Bitcoin replaced all M1 money supply in the world, what is very unrealistic, but we want to make a conservative estimate. As of 2009 M1 was about 20*1012USD http://dont-tread-on.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/SmallGlobalMoneySupply.png
In 12 years block reward will be 8 times less than now, let's assume that fees still constitute a minor part of block reward, i.e. block reward is 3.125 BTC, that means 18.75 BTC created per hour. Value of 1 BTC equals roughly 1 million USD of 2009 purchasing power (in 2027 USD doesn't exist already, since BTC completely replaced it). Let's now assume, that miners spend half of their revenue to pay for electricity (that's rather unrealistic, but we want to make a conservative estimation), so we have 9.4*106 USD per hour to pay for electricity. If we take a reasonable price of 0.07 USD/kWt*h, that results in 1.3*1011 Watts of total power consumption by all miners in the world. In 2007 the world produced about 20*1015 Wt*h of electric power, or 2.3*1012 Watts on the average. We can see that under such unrealistic conditions bitcoin mining consumes less than 6% of total world electric power.
Hope I didn't make a mistake in calculations.

BTW, we can conclude that even in 12 years Bitcoin is unlikely to replace all money in the world, since 6% of total electric power produced in the world is a bit much, I'd say that bitcoin will need not less than 16 years to achieve that  Smiley

And again, all of us want the same: Bitcoin adoption growth.
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