Scams vs Spam | Bitcointalksearch.org

LoyceV

legendary

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: Bardman on April 07, 2018, 04:39:19 AM

But why not ban those accounts as well, there are plenty of accounts with like -500 trust, clearly they did or tried to scam, what's the point of allowing them to continue posting on the forum? In fact some signature or bounty campaigns allow people with negative trust to join.

Achow101 answered that already:

Quote from: achow101 on April 05, 2018, 04:05:51 PM

Scams are not moderated

The reasoning behind this is to prevent moderator abuse and not to create a fake sense of security.

The work load for moderators is already too high to stop the spam, adding scams to the list will only overload them more.

Bardman

hero member

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Quote from: Theb on April 07, 2018, 02:07:03 AM

Quote from: Bardman on April 04, 2018, 05:23:24 PM

It seems to me that most of the posts here are bout merits and spam/shitposting. There are a few posts about scams but most are about merits and spam and I'm not saying it's ok to have spam but isn't more important to stop scams? Has anyone seen all the articles about how many scams happen in the cryptocurrency world? Like this: https://news.bitcoin.com/9-million-day-lost-cryptocurrency-scams/

It is because you are looking in the wrong section Bardman. This "Meta" section is a discussion about inside the Bitcointalk Forum and right now the most controversial thing to talk about is Merits and Spam/Shit post here in the forum. Scams have a proper section under "Trading Discussion" as a Child Board this is where you can see scam accusations against a website, user, or both. There is even a section for their reputation so you can freely talk about it there.

Once the scam is proven a lot of DT members are willing to give a red tag in order for other newbie members or potential targets to see that this users have a negative trust. Having a negative trust really affects your whole reputation here in the forum.

But why not ban those accounts as well, there are plenty of accounts with like -500 trust, clearly they did or tried to scam, what's the point of allowing them to continue posting on the forum? In fact some signature or bounty campaigns allow people with negative trust to join.

Theb

hero member

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Quote from: Bardman on April 04, 2018, 05:23:24 PM

It seems to me that most of the posts here are bout merits and spam/shitposting. There are a few posts about scams but most are about merits and spam and I'm not saying it's ok to have spam but isn't more important to stop scams? Has anyone seen all the articles about how many scams happen in the cryptocurrency world? Like this: https://news.bitcoin.com/9-million-day-lost-cryptocurrency-scams/

It is because you are looking in the wrong section Bardman. This "Meta" section is a discussion about inside the Bitcointalk Forum and right now the most controversial thing to talk about is Merits and Spam/Shit post here in the forum. Scams have a proper section under "Trading Discussion" as a Child Board this is where you can see scam accusations against a website, user, or both. There is even a section for their reputation so you can freely talk about it there.

Once the scam is proven a lot of DT members are willing to give a red tag in order for other newbie members or potential targets to see that this users have a negative trust. Having a negative trust really affects your whole reputation here in the forum.

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: Bardman on April 06, 2018, 05:48:23 PM

Well then someone is obviously doing something wrong, forum rules are the problem then. If people really want to get rid of spam it would be quite easy, delete signature campaigns or enforce some rules for signature campaign managers and owners, quite easy really and when one of those 2 options is enabled, moderators will be able to focus more on scam issues. There is no need for 100 merit related posts and yet I don't see mods getting rid of them.

It's an illusion to think you can stop scammers, people will always gets scammed. It happened long before the internet, and the internet made it more anonymous. Add an irreversible payment system, and people really have to learn to be careful. As it says on all threads in Securities and Lending:

Quote

Warning: Moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Watch out for Ponzi schemes. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose.

One of the reasons scams aren't moderated, is so users don't let their guard down. At least now we all know this forum is filled with scammers.

achow101

staff

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Just writing some code

Quote from: Bardman on April 06, 2018, 05:48:23 PM

Well then someone is obviously doing something wrong, forum rules are the problem then. If people really want to get rid of spam it would be quite easy, delete signature campaigns or enforce some rules for signature campaign managers and owners, quite easy really and when one of those 2 options is enabled, moderators will be able to focus more on scam issues.

What makes you think that scams will be moderated if spam isn't a problem? As I said before, it is not the moderators' job to moderate scams, and it likely won't be, regardless of the situation with spam.

jonemil24

member

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imagine me

I believe that spam is also associated with scam. A scam ICO can easily make a thread and lots of new accounts to spam his/her own thread, and it will be hard to scan all of the pages to see if someone accused them as scammers. Why would you need a bumping service, if you could create an army of shitposters?

I believe my post on another thread can be a solution to these scam ICOs for creating a thread-https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.34111110, I know that our own data will be at risk, but I do think that this is the best solution.

Bardman

hero member

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Quote from: achow101 on April 06, 2018, 03:17:11 PM

Quote from: Bardman on April 06, 2018, 02:14:49 PM

Well, isn't that the moderator's job? Also I wouldn't ask to look into every single complaint but many scam accusations are well sustained and documented, the users who are serious about it usually provide a lot of information and it doesn't take that much time to look into it. It seems to me more like an excuse.

It is not the moderators' job to remove scams. The moderators' job is is enforce the forum rules. It is not against the rules to scam someone. It is against the rules to post spam.

Quote from: Bardman on April 06, 2018, 02:14:49 PM

Do moderators get paid here?

Yes. However payments are a bonus, not a salary. It is no one's full time job to be a moderator here.

Well then someone is obviously doing something wrong, forum rules are the problem then. If people really want to get rid of spam it would be quite easy, delete signature campaigns or enforce some rules for signature campaign managers and owners, quite easy really and when one of those 2 options is enabled, moderators will be able to focus more on scam issues. There is no need for 100 merit related posts and yet I don't see mods getting rid of them.

Flyne d Coin Digger

newbie

Activity: 84

Merit: 0

Spam is better than scam, I believe moderators can just eradicate any spam they've see or if it was reported so it's just small problem compares to scam that is a major problem.

Hence to this, if you think the ICO or any individual or even if just felling or or touch of sense that they cant be trusted, something's wrong, something's fishy it's better just to avoid them by not making any transactions at all.

If some pester you in message just block them or report them. (Or call captain America for help ----lol)

achow101

staff

Activity: 3458

Merit: 6793

Just writing some code

Quote from: Bardman on April 06, 2018, 02:14:49 PM

Well, isn't that the moderator's job? Also I wouldn't ask to look into every single complaint but many scam accusations are well sustained and documented, the users who are serious about it usually provide a lot of information and it doesn't take that much time to look into it. It seems to me more like an excuse.

It is not the moderators' job to remove scams. The moderators' job is is enforce the forum rules. It is not against the rules to scam someone. It is against the rules to post spam.

Quote from: Bardman on April 06, 2018, 02:14:49 PM

Do moderators get paid here?

Yes. However payments are a bonus, not a salary. It is no one's full time job to be a moderator here.

gantez

full member

Activity: 1736

Merit: 121

Quote from: Bardman on April 04, 2018, 06:04:38 PM

You have a point but there have to be ways to prevent more scams just like there are ways to prevent spam, I was just talking about the fact that most people seem to be concerned a little bit too much with spam or at least make it seem like they are concerned.

In such situation, using escrow is usually advised. You dont do transaction with a newbie without guiding with another person that will be a third party. If parties are contracting in such an unsecured manner, I think the losing party has acted sheepishly in my view.

Bardman

hero member

Activity: 952

Merit: 516

Quote from: achow101 on April 06, 2018, 10:10:26 AM

Quote from: Bardman on April 06, 2018, 07:11:11 AM

I don't know, I always thought it would be better to just ban confirmed scammers, this argument of ''he is just going to use another account if we ban him'' makes no sense since he can use another account anyways even if he is not banned. Banning at least would make it harder for them, forcing them to actually have a new account and with the merit system it gets even harder. If mods can take the time to look into spam and ban users for it they also could look into scams, no?

This rule has nothing to do with ''he is just going to use another account if we ban him''. Moderating scams means that the staff needs to both investigate a potential scam (which takes a lot of time), and determine what is and is not a scam. This requires a significant amount of effort and takes a lot longer to do and is more opinion based than identifying and deleting spam.

Well, isn't that the moderator's job? Also I wouldn't ask to look into every single complaint but many scam accusations are well sustained and documented, the users who are serious about it usually provide a lot of information and it doesn't take that much time to look into it. It seems to me more like an excuse. Do moderators get paid here?

achow101

staff

Activity: 3458

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Just writing some code

Quote from: Bardman on April 06, 2018, 07:11:11 AM

I don't know, I always thought it would be better to just ban confirmed scammers, this argument of ''he is just going to use another account if we ban him'' makes no sense since he can use another account anyways even if he is not banned. Banning at least would make it harder for them, forcing them to actually have a new account and with the merit system it gets even harder. If mods can take the time to look into spam and ban users for it they also could look into scams, no?

This rule has nothing to do with ''he is just going to use another account if we ban him''. Moderating scams means that the staff needs to both investigate a potential scam (which takes a lot of time), and determine what is and is not a scam. This requires a significant amount of effort and takes a lot longer to do and is more opinion based than identifying and deleting spam.

Bardman

hero member

Activity: 952

Merit: 516

Quote from: Cobalt9317 on April 05, 2018, 06:40:29 PM

Quote from: achow101 on April 05, 2018, 04:05:51 PM

Scams are not moderated; we leave that up to the community to police itself. That is why there is a trust and feedback system.

Yeah I don't quite understand the trust system when I received a neutral feedback from KWH.

@O.P Just don't get scammed that is the essence of it there will be no scammers if there's no one bitting to false promises.

I'm not going to get scammed but certainly a ton of people are, here and everywhere.

Quote from: achow101 on April 05, 2018, 04:05:51 PM

Scams are not moderated; we leave that up to the community to police itself. That is why there is a trust and feedback system.

I don't know, I always thought it would be better to just ban confirmed scammers, this argument of ''he is just going to use another account if we ban him'' makes no sense since he can use another account anyways even if he is not banned. Banning at least would make it harder for them, forcing them to actually have a new account and with the merit system it gets even harder. If mods can take the time to look into spam and ban users for it they also could look into scams, no?

Cobalt9317

copper member

Activity: 434

Merit: 278

Offering Escrow 0.5 % fee

Quote from: achow101 on April 05, 2018, 04:05:51 PM

Scams are not moderated; we leave that up to the community to police itself. That is why there is a trust and feedback system.

Yeah I don't quite understand the trust system when I received a neutral feedback from KWH.

@O.P Just don't get scammed that is the essence of it there will be no scammers if there's no one bitting to false promises.

StarKay

member

Activity: 756

Merit: 16

We All Can Make It

Scammers are mostly difficult to point out simply because they don't appear as scammers unlike spammers so it is easier to fight Spams than Scams.
Many ICOs that started well and some that are even opened by high ranking members of this forum turns out to be scam later on, that is why people have been warned to also do their own research before investing in ICOs.
And if you suspect anyone to be a scammer, you can always contact the forum moderators and inform them.

DarkStar_

legendary

Activity: 2772

Merit: 3284

Quote from: Bardman on April 05, 2018, 03:00:03 PM

Quote from: DarkStar_ on April 04, 2018, 08:44:55 PM

Quote from: Bardman on April 04, 2018, 06:04:38 PM

Quote from: DarkStar_ on April 04, 2018, 05:31:17 PM

Quote from: Bardman on April 04, 2018, 05:23:24 PM

I can think of a few easy ways right now like why are we even allowing newbies to post in the lending section? At least they shouldn't be able to start threads, most of them are scams and while there are definitely members stopping them like vod and others I still find it weird that everyone cares so much about spam and not enough about scams.

No thanks, I've gotten decent profit off of loans to people like max2607 who offer valid altcoin collateral that covers all of their loan. Newbies looking for a loan are usually scammers, but not always. I'd hate to lose the legitimate loan requests just because someone was stupid enough to lend to a very new account without any collateral.

There are a lot of people fighting scams too, and restricting those with negative trust from opening marketplace threads doesn't really help; they'll just switch to a new account. You don't hear about the scammers very often because scamming someone is black and white, unlike spamming/merit farming. If you're scammed; you don't trust that user. I doubt scammers will bother asking people to reconsider

You have a point but there have to be ways to prevent more scams just like there are ways to prevent spam, I was just talking about the fact that most people seem to be concerned a little bit too much with spam or at least make it seem like they are concerned.

What else do you propose we do? Restricting Newbie posts in the Lending section isn't going to help much; if someone was going to give a Newbie with zero reputation and no incentive to repay a loan, chances are they'll get scammed.

Negative trust preventing people from opening new threads will just cause people to switch to alts, like I mentioned. Aside from banning ICOs on the forum entirely, there's not much to be done that would really help. There's way too many ICOs, and new ones launching every day. My guess is that most of them will be scams, but it's hard to tell as they rarely provide any actual information. People were investing in Bitconnect for crying out loud, despite them having negative trust, and obvious fake promises.

If you have any new ideas, I'm sure people would like to hear them, but complaining about the lack of scam protection without offering any good ideas or proof that there really is a lack (Meta being quiet isn't really an indicator) is a bad idea and isn't going to get you anywhere.

''Negative trust preventing people from opening new threads will just cause people to switch to alts, like I mentioned.'' Never really understood this point like, banning people would only make them switch to alts so it's better to not ban anyone or prevent anyone from posting because they can avoid it?

Signature spammers are 99%+ over the people banned (not an exact figure, but I assume it's correct). If they're banned, they need to start ranking up a new account, and it would count as ban evasion, which is also bannable. This can not be said for a person with negative trust who creates a new account.

I trust most Newbies equally as someone who has negative trust, so a seller switching to a Newbie doesn't really lose too much. They just need sales, and someone who would trade with a person who has a history of scamming would likely trade with a Newbie as well.

straX

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

If we see that have markable red or green trust that gives from default trust members dont recognize itself we do as scam,sometimes the system is using for avoiding scurrility or spam,And i dont have idea why so many users have a caution to trades and appeal here in a reason no wants doing scam for other user. Huh

achow101

staff

Activity: 3458

Merit: 6793

Just writing some code

Scams are not moderated; we leave that up to the community to police itself. That is why there is a trust and feedback system.

jhenfelipe

hero member

Activity: 1372

Merit: 647

If all the people who join every ICO posted here do a thorough research, we might see several "scam" or "potential scam" threads here in the forum. However, that's not the case.

Trust ratings are not moderated. There might be people who are not scammers, yet have a negative trust in their account. That being said, disabling all users with negative trust to open threads or banning them will affect a non scammer's account as well. In regards to posts in the lending section, just don't deal with newbies without collateral.

Still, the best way to avoid being scammed is to be cautious. It is every user's responsibility to check / apply security measures before dealing online in general (not only in the forum). Btw, I think everyone is concern about scams, it's just that they(we) don't post about it and that doesn't mean we don't care at all.

Bardman

hero member

Activity: 952

Merit: 516

Quote from: DarkStar_ on April 04, 2018, 08:44:55 PM

Quote from: Bardman on April 04, 2018, 06:04:38 PM

Quote from: DarkStar_ on April 04, 2018, 05:31:17 PM

Quote from: Bardman on April 04, 2018, 05:23:24 PM

I can think of a few easy ways right now like why are we even allowing newbies to post in the lending section? At least they shouldn't be able to start threads, most of them are scams and while there are definitely members stopping them like vod and others I still find it weird that everyone cares so much about spam and not enough about scams.

No thanks, I've gotten decent profit off of loans to people like max2607 who offer valid altcoin collateral that covers all of their loan. Newbies looking for a loan are usually scammers, but not always. I'd hate to lose the legitimate loan requests just because someone was stupid enough to lend to a very new account without any collateral.

There are a lot of people fighting scams too, and restricting those with negative trust from opening marketplace threads doesn't really help; they'll just switch to a new account. You don't hear about the scammers very often because scamming someone is black and white, unlike spamming/merit farming. If you're scammed; you don't trust that user. I doubt scammers will bother asking people to reconsider

You have a point but there have to be ways to prevent more scams just like there are ways to prevent spam, I was just talking about the fact that most people seem to be concerned a little bit too much with spam or at least make it seem like they are concerned.

What else do you propose we do? Restricting Newbie posts in the Lending section isn't going to help much; if someone was going to give a Newbie with zero reputation and no incentive to repay a loan, chances are they'll get scammed.

Negative trust preventing people from opening new threads will just cause people to switch to alts, like I mentioned. Aside from banning ICOs on the forum entirely, there's not much to be done that would really help. There's way too many ICOs, and new ones launching every day. My guess is that most of them will be scams, but it's hard to tell as they rarely provide any actual information. People were investing in Bitconnect for crying out loud, despite them having negative trust, and obvious fake promises.

If you have any new ideas, I'm sure people would like to hear them, but complaining about the lack of scam protection without offering any good ideas or proof that there really is a lack (Meta being quiet isn't really an indicator) is a bad idea and isn't going to get you anywhere.

''Negative trust preventing people from opening new threads will just cause people to switch to alts, like I mentioned.'' Never really understood this point like, banning people would only make them switch to alts so it's better to not ban anyone or prevent anyone from posting because they can avoid it?

Topic: Scams vs Spam (Read 376 times)