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Topic: Scarcity model bullshit. - page 2. (Read 2760 times)

legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
June 12, 2014, 01:58:35 PM
#26
The value of my money goes up or remains constant over time = scarcity is bad... that argument makes no sense to me.

That is not the argument.. Money that's value stays constant is exactly what I am after. It is money who's value changes that is immoral. Deflation airy currencies rob from borrowers inflationary currencies rob from savers, both are bad. Honest money maintains its purchasing power, it doesnt increase or decrease. 

value stays in constant in relation to what?

In relation to a socially objective standard, the rodgers commodity index has been suggest. 
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
June 12, 2014, 01:57:19 PM
#25
Gold as a currency for thousands of years and then being usurped by an oppressive government is a great indication that the scarcity model does not work for money.

Gold is not problem...government is


I read that book. Murray Rothbard "What has government done to our money" he is mostly wrong. I would rather deal with gold manipulation than the governments manipulation, but that was written in an era where those where the only two options. That isnt the world we are living in.
   
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
June 12, 2014, 01:50:59 PM
#24
The value of my money goes up or remains constant over time = scarcity is bad... that argument makes no sense to me.

That is not the argument.. Money that's value stays constant is exactly what I am after. It is money who's value changes that is immoral. Deflation airy currencies rob from borrowers inflationary currencies rob from savers, both are bad. Honest money maintains its purchasing power, it doesnt increase or decrease. 

value stays in constant in relation to what?
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
June 12, 2014, 01:48:57 PM
#23
The value of my money goes up or remains constant over time = scarcity is bad... that argument makes no sense to me.

That is not the argument.. Money that's value stays constant is exactly what I am after. It is money who's value changes that is immoral. Deflationary currencies rob from borrowers inflationary currencies rob from savers, both are bad. Honest money maintains its purchasing power, it doesnt increase or decrease.  
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
June 12, 2014, 01:44:09 PM
#22
Gold as a currency for thousands of years and then being usurped by an oppressive government is a great indication that the scarcity model does not work for money.

Gold worked to create stability and prosperity because as humans created more value than the above ground gold stock could quantify they where able to go out and find more. Gold eventually failed when man created more value than gold was capable of representing. 

Defining the unit of the measure of value in terms of gold or bitcoin is like defining the unit of the measure of length in terms of an inch worm.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
June 12, 2014, 01:38:47 PM
#21
First of all, I'd just like to state that any model that isn't based off scarcity is a fantasy because reality itself provides multiple limits on us. The only limitless dimension we can ever hope to experience in our lifetimes is our imaginations. The most simple illustration of this is time, in which we all have a limited amount and since all of our lives are built upon a limited and scarce amount of time, we can never hope to build something that is limitless on top of it. Logically, it makes no sense.

However, I'd like to address this abundance model specifically:

The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems."

In this system, there is scarcity as well, namely the specific person and the specific good or service. For example, if 100 people have promises that a local carpenter will build a porch for them and that person dies, all those people who have this promise now have a worthless promise because that person will never be able to fulfill their promise. The main abundance in this model would be the amount of people defaulting on their promises.

Abundance is an illusion, scarcity cannot be escaped. The sooner it's accepted, the more practical solutions that can be devised based off of reality.



Right but people wouldnt trust coins issued from individuals in their 90's with no employees and if they did they would expect a risk premium.

The number of credits in the market place would be limited by the actual ability to redeem those credits. So reality would set the limit not some arbitrary amount of metal or number pulled out of the air.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
June 12, 2014, 01:32:16 PM
#20
2. The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems."

This is almost exactly the definition of how Ripple works.  You should really check it out and study it.  I think it is exactly what you are looking for.

Ripple allows anyone to issue their own personal currency.  I could issue BurtBucks, you could issue Sublimers (or whatever you want to call them).  You can issue as many of these notes as you want and you back them with whatever you want.  Check it out.  Do not get side tracked by the Ripple system's own internal Bitcoin like currency (XRPs) that is just a way to jump start the system and pay for it.  You want to look into the way it allows anyone to create their own personal money backed by any good, service, other form of money (USD, Euros, etc.) or commodity (corn, wheat, pot, Bitcoins, etc.)

Right but ripples work on the scarcity principle. If ripples where not limited in supply and free then it would work perfect for me. 
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1029
June 12, 2014, 01:14:00 PM
#19
Gold as a currency for thousands of years and then being usurped by an oppressive government is a great indication that the scarcity model does not work for money.

Gold is not problem...government is
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
June 12, 2014, 01:11:26 PM
#18
bitcoin is not finite as you can move to smaller denominations

making exisiting bitcoin holders  richer
new entrants are at a disadvantage

this is compared with fiat where new fiat dollars have the advantage and existing fiat holders are at a disadvantage
hero member
Activity: 622
Merit: 500
June 12, 2014, 12:03:30 PM
#17
The value of my money goes up or remains constant over time = scarcity is bad... that argument makes no sense to me.
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
June 12, 2014, 11:56:53 AM
#16
Gold as a currency for thousands of years and then being usurped by an oppressive government is a great indication that the scarcity model does not work for money.

Money will always be at least as scarce as the goods and services it can buy. With a stable, scarce money supply, price will approximate and be driven very close to its true value since people must think very critically about their purchases knowing their money is limited.

When money is abundant and chasing scarce goods and services, there will be massive distortions in price and true value of those goods and services will be much harder to discern since there is much less concern with overpaying/wasting money. Evidence: US Dollar.

If everyone owned an abundant amount of US dollars today, would it make the global economy better or worse? Hopefully the answer is obvious.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
June 12, 2014, 11:54:51 AM
#15
The high energy cost come with a relativ secure blockchain....doge is wasting less energy but is less secure!
It needs to be said, that security by hardware pales to security ba software. So BTC could become 1000 times more secure and use alot less energy if it really wanted to (well if core devs wanted to). But as i said many times before, and i will say again, core devs are under paws of hardware manufacturers, and hardware is not going anywhere anytime soon.

What kind of malarkey is this and what altcoin are you pushing
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
June 12, 2014, 11:43:59 AM
#14
Gold as a currency for thousands of years and then being usurped by an oppressive government is a great indication that the scarcity model does not work for money.
sr. member
Activity: 248
Merit: 250
June 12, 2014, 11:38:44 AM
#13
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
June 12, 2014, 11:30:25 AM
#12
First of all, I'd just like to state that any model that isn't based off scarcity is a fantasy because reality itself provides multiple limits on us. The only limitless dimension we can ever hope to experience in our lifetimes is our imaginations. The most simple illustration of this is time, in which we all have a limited amount and since all of our lives are built upon a limited and scarce amount of time, we can never hope to build something that is limitless on top of it. Logically, it makes no sense.

However, I'd like to address this abundance model specifically:

The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems."

In this system, there is scarcity as well, namely the specific person and the specific good or service. For example, if 100 people have promises that a local carpenter will build a porch for them and that person dies, all those people who have this promise now have a worthless promise because that person will never be able to fulfill their promise. The main abundance in this model would be the amount of people defaulting on their promises.

Abundance is an illusion, scarcity cannot be escaped. The sooner it's accepted, the more practical solutions that can be devised based off of reality.

sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
June 12, 2014, 11:07:49 AM
#11
everything is a scarcity model, it's always lucky cunts that get there first, then the rest of people like me (unlucky) try to pic a poverty tier seat on a train that's going at full speed.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1029
June 12, 2014, 10:33:57 AM
#10
The high energy cost come with a relativ secure blockchain....doge is wasting less energy but is less secure!
It needs to be said, that security by hardware pales to security ba software. So BTC could become 1000 times more secure and use alot less energy if it really wanted to (well if core devs wanted to). But as i said many times before, and i will say again, core devs are under paws of hardware manufacturers, and hardware is not going anywhere anytime soon.
newbie
Activity: 38
Merit: 0
June 12, 2014, 10:31:05 AM
#9
The high energy cost come with a relativ secure blockchain....doge is wasting less energy but is less secure!
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
June 12, 2014, 10:25:25 AM
#8
OP, this is totally mixing apples and oranges.

REAL wealth (products, services, etc) can come from a place of abundance because
we are limitless creators.

But I think it is smart to have a LIMITED SUPPLY OF CURRENCY to act as a fair measure/medium
to exchange values.

legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
June 12, 2014, 10:09:02 AM
#7
2. The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems."

This is almost exactly the definition of how Ripple works.  You should really check it out and study it.  I think it is exactly what you are looking for.

Ripple allows anyone to issue their own personal currency.  I could issue BurtBucks, you could issue Sublimers (or whatever you want to call them).  You can issue as many of these notes as you want and you back them with whatever you want.  Check it out.  Do not get side tracked by the Ripple system's own internal Bitcoin like currency (XRPs) that is just a way to jump start the system and pay for it.  You want to look into the way it allows anyone to create their own personal money backed by any good, service, other form of money (USD, Euros, etc.) or commodity (corn, wheat, pot, Bitcoins, etc.)
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