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Topic: Scientifically valuable alternative for bitcoin? (Read 3650 times)

full member
Activity: 153
Merit: 100
February 10, 2015, 02:52:29 PM
#35
Curecoin by far.


It backs up folding @ home - protein research done by stanford to find cures for diseases such as cancer and alzheimers.

Read more: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-curecoin-20-is-live-mandatory-update-is-available-now-dec-2018-603757


And with the 2.0 launch, this coin will be the best folding asset out of all.

Find out more here, http://curecoinfolding.com/
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 503
Monero Core Team
Monero is NOT scientifically valuable and fantomcoin even less so. Full disclosure: I am in the core team of Monero.

No.

A PoW requires some unique characteristics [...]
There is no scientific work which meets this criteria.  Maybe you will figure it out just understand it isn't a trivial problem.  There may not be a solution.  It might be like trying to make a nuclear powered aircraft (google it).
Could PoS meet this criteria? Useful PoS a possibility?

Note; my main reason is to reduce carbon footprint. Is such a "useful PoS" ends up requiring as much energy as PoW, not worth it.
full member
Activity: 137
Merit: 100
As a Ripple user, I vote for the Research Support Coin (RSC), which is a ripple-based currency. They pay for running BOINC projects from World Community Grid.
Ann thread: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annrsc-research-support-coin-rsc-mining-with-purpose-566608
sr. member
Activity: 288
Merit: 253
In the value of any coin should also include the assets that are build on it.
Like Nxt´s AE´s assets.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
DeathAndTaxes,
Indeed the PoW characteristics make it difficult to place something socially/scientifically valuable there.
But what we can do is to reduce the cost of PoW to minimum (e.g. introducing some minimal transaction fees to maintain the market), shifting most of the cost to the mining: as finding something valuable like protein folding.
Such better folding than best currently found would become a new "foldcoin" - announced, broadcasted to the network - market allowing for secure transactions with them.

As discussed, because of not controllable amount, it would be kind of a special currency.
Something analogous to investing in given artist by buying his artworks. Their price is very subjective, increases when others become interested, and finally usually grows much when the artist dies, what should freeze the number of his artworks on the market.
For such "foldcoin", first you mainly buy (or formally declare willing to buy) to finance the research. However, it is also an investment - the price can increase when others became interested, leading to your profit. And finally finding the global energy minimum (the best folding) would freeze the number of its foldcoins, stabilizing their marker - but the price can still grow, especially e.g. when given protein would turn out significant in some therapy.

Such model of investment in research should be more effective than standard financing - giving money no matter the results.
Here it would be a never-ending contest - if you want to get this amount of money, just find a better folding. No matter what method you use - it would be great to stimulate searching for new approaches.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
But the question remains: if we could (partially?) replace standard mining - having questionable scientific value, with some finding solutions to a more general valuable problem like protein folding.

No.

A PoW requires some unique characteristics

1) It must be deterministic without needing input from any outside source.  With a copy of the blockchain and nothing else you can verify all PoW back to the genesis block.

2) Each PoW must link to both the current block and the prior block.  Bitcoin does this by including the prior block hash in the blockheader and the block header is what is hashed to check for difficulty.  This means blocks can't be computed in advance, and the contents of blocks can't be changed.

3) The difficulty of finding a solution must be scalable.  In the short history of Bitcoin the difficulty has increased by a factor of almost nine billion.  This is required to balance the dynamic amount of computing power applied to the network with a fixed block schedule

4) It must be compact as it will need to be shared with all peers and store perpetually.

5) It must be take a long time to solve and be quick to verify.  Currently it take over 20,000 quadrillion double hashes to solve a block but only one double hash to verify it.  Remember new nodes may be joining months or years after the project begins and thus have to verify thousands or millions of blocks.

There is no scientific work which meets this criteria.  Maybe you will figure it out just understand it isn't a trivial problem.  There may not be a solution.  It might be like trying to make a nuclear powered aircraft (google it).

sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Curecoin by far.


It backs up folding @ home - protein research done by stanford to find cures for diseases such as cancer and alzheimers.

Read more: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-curecoin-20-is-live-mandatory-update-is-available-now-dec-2018-603757
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 503
Monero Core Team
I'll try to make it a short compilation of my ideas:

  • Useful PoS (possible?) - instead of (semi-)Useful PoW like Primecoin and Riecoin) - algo itself is useful => environmentally-friendly, I know that PoS is not (yet?) cryptographically proven
  • "Useful Leakage" - a part of the PoS goes to faucet and or science foundation (like curecoin, gridcoin and RSC do). The faucet or other mechanism might mitigate the low equity of PoS
  • Cryptonote technology is a superior founding block than bitcoin. Superior anonymity and superior flexibility.

The problem of unreliable difficulty remains. Primecoin evidenced that it is not intrinsic to useful PoW, but it may make it difficult.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
I'm really quite sane!
Cryptocurrencies like bitcoin are quickly growing social phenomena, which motivate huge amount of people to spend lots of valuable resources (manpower, electronics, electric energy) to solve complex computational problems ... which are otherwise completely worthless.
As from some perspectives it could be seen as pure waste of valuable resources, I would like to propose a discussion about directing this social phenomena to some socially useful tasks. For example we could change solving currently used problems, like finding a sequence with small hash value, into e.g. finding optimal protein folding, useful in understanding of life and developing new drugs: for given amino acid sequence, find its configuration (angle sequence) minimizing energy. So “mining a coin” for a given protein would be e.g. finding a configuration with essentially lower energy than current best. It would also allow to use (motivate economically) other approaches for “mining” like crystallography. Other kind of problems here could be finding optimal set of parameters for some algorithm...

So there should be some market with database of useful problems which can be attacked this way and can be well specified. Each of them would correspond to a separate currency – their number can be huge. In contrast, the amount of coins could be very limited – e.g. finding the best configuration would freeze the amount of “scicoins” corresponding to this problem. However, obviously they can be still exchanged and their value can still fluctuate – e.g. would probably grow if given protein would turn out very useful. It would also motivate people to focus more on science as a partial replacement for purely egoistic economical interests.

 Some questions:
-   what kind, examples of tasks could be used for such cryptocurrencies? They should be very well defined, cheap to verify, they should have a relatively large family of improvements like better energy minims for protein folding, maybe e.g. better algorithm/parameters for some useful problem ... Maybe it could be used for some more general than purely computational (scientific) tasks?
-   what kind of infrastructure would the best for them? Can be treated like bitcoins, but containing e.g. protein angle sequence instead,
-   how would their economy look like: huge amount of currencies with very limited amount of “coins”?

Generally: how to directly human egoism from focusing on socially useless problems, toward the valuable ones?

ps. A year old article says they spend 15 million dollars a day for electricity only ( http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/03/fascinating-number-bitcoin-mining-uses-15-millions-worth-of-electricity-every-day/ ) ... and it will grow - cannot we direct it to something useful?

I believe CureCoin is precisely what you are describing. Are you familiar with Stanford University's Folding@home? CureCoin utilizes this.
sr. member
Activity: 312
Merit: 254
Well, will try to share my vision about this
First of all, it's obvious that fold proteins as PoW will be great, but it's obvious too that if it isn't done yet is because is very difficult. Some problems which come to my mind without thinking much about and some with possible solutions are:

- Time betwen blocks if we use a Bitcoin-like model (I think this could be solved if something symilar to eXocoin algorithm is used, which uses a timer for subbmit new blocks and once the block is solved can't be submited and miners becomes idle till new block need to be found) or at least this is which I understood about it without any technical knowledge

-Folding the protein only from their aa sequence will take toooooooo long, each aa have 10 liberty degrees in the space, so if a small protein will have 300aa, 10^300 are many possible combinations, this is solved using data about secondary structure and 3 and 9 nucleotida fragments structures for guide the tridimensional protein structure formation (more and more problems to add into the coin code which are solved nowdays using different applications which even uses databases to find this kind of information)

-The model always can become more accurate and will take many time, you have to say when you consider it valid, and this minimun energy state woudn't be universal for all proteins, and without knowing much about, I think this will be hard to explain to a computer which will use always the same code for fold all the proteins and decide when is really folded.

-The utility of ab-initio models isn't very huge in my opinion, they give you an aproximate model, but I think it will be more trustoworthy in many cases obtain it thrw x-ray cristalography and refine it . (This models could become more usefull for theorical proteins which don't even exist, but in many cases, this proteins, I think, derive from real proteins with some modifications)

Sure there are many more problems, but it's late here, I didn't slept enought yesterday and today I get very bored in class, so my brain is diying and don't want to work with me  Cry

So I think that one better alternative to have a coind distributed throw this method, is to use a POS system as base, for example, I said in other threads, use the nodecoin in nxt for makeing some kind of research token which is rewarded by participating in distributed computing projects.
An idea which I like even more, could be a nxt paralell blockchain, in which the coins are generated throw PoS and all the interests goes to a wallet controlled by the system which automatically rewards them to the "folders", this new paralell chain could be based in some distributed computing patafforms such BOINC, in which any researcher could submitt their workunits and they are processed by the network and even validated trhow some kind of decentraliced validation system "assuming majority of nodes areg ood guys, and the same workunit have been processed by many nodes, they should get symilar results, so if most results are symilar, we can say it's a good workunit"
Using this idea, we can use all unused cpu cycles by the time people is rewarded (Imagine that this tokens could become used to get disscounts in medicines discovered thanks to that or that big research companys decide to pay some fee to aceleratte their workunits processing)

This is a bit of my thoughts about this, it's only an idea, maybe I'm saying many stupid thinks, I'm not a coder like I said many times, what do you guys think? Could something like this work some day? I think too that new systems for distribution could be created, or POS concept could be modified to addapt to a better distribution model.

PD: Sorry if my english sounds strange and all the invented words  Embarrassed I didn't get the time to write it beautyfull or 100% correct, hope you can understand Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000


Gridcoin is by far the most advanced scientific crypto and allows you to participate in your choice of a variety of scientific projects:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/gridcoin-grc-first-coin-utilizing-boinc-official-thread-324118
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
Thank you all – so now I am now aware of 3 altcoins sharing profits for standard mining with research: curecoin, gridcoin and RSC (Research Support Coin).
But the question remains: if we could (partially?) replace standard mining - having questionable scientific value, with some finding solutions to a more general valuable problem like protein folding.
Such model seems somehow more motivating, innovation provoking than pure financing – you know that for finding a better configuration, whatever method you use, you will get some concrete amount of money.

Thank you MessyCoin,
While I believe there can be created a reasonable infrastructure for such e.g. foldcoins (with minimal cost - nearly the entire cost is shifted to mining: solving valuable problem), your first issue makes it clear that it cannot be used as a standard currency: because its amount grows in a very uncontrollable way.
But they would make sense if treated in a different way – kind of special currency with limited resources and combined with investing in some concrete research.

So I imagine that if someone would like to add some protein to the task database, he should show some reliable source that this protein is interesting and the currently best energy found to set the energy limit and prevent premining.
Additionally, he should make some formal declaration, like “I can buy one foldcoin for this protein for $100” – saying that finding a better than known configuration is worth at least this amount of money and suggesting initial value for such foldcoin. So it would motivate focusing on this protein, starting its market.
Then buying such foldcoins would increase their value – being investment in this research.
Additional investments/motivations could be a system of such formal declarations – e.g. of buying one new (better than known) foldcoin for some higher price.

ps. If you want to feel the protein folding problem, I recommend installing foldit and at least going through tutorial.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 0
RIECOIN! riecoin.org
newbie
Activity: 18
Merit: 0
How about 365Coin? There was a speculation bubble there last time I checked.
full member
Activity: 221
Merit: 100
sr. member
Activity: 458
Merit: 250
What is wrong with such general model?

One thing that comes to mind is that for a cryptocurrency to work, the time between discovery of new solutions to the puzzle (AKA "block time") must come in predictably regular intervals so that confirmation of financial transactions occur in a reliable fashion. In Bitcoin, this is managed by the "difficulty", which is automatically adjusted depending on the amount of computational power present on the network in order to achieve a 10min average between confirmations. The difficulty of the puzzle will increase if there are more miners, and decrease when there are less, in order to try and maintain the 10min average. I do not know how this problem could be approached in terms of protein folding or some other scientific progress - possibly there is some mechanism that could be used, but potential pitfalls exist if there is no way to limit the time between a new discovery.

The source of the algorithmic work is also important. SETI takes its work data from a certain source and with Folding@Home the work is provided by Stanford University I think. This is great, but not suitable data for the basis of a financial system. Bitcoin's work comes from itself, and this provides an invaluable level of security. Perhaps there is some decentralized way to feed new data into the computations. Sadly I am not informed enough on the topic of protein folding to be aware of the possibilities and I will need to read more about protein folding before I can be more confident. Where does protein folding data come from?

Perhaps there is a way to control difficulty with protein folding, and a way to ensure that the data is coming from within the system. But those would be my two concerns.

A great number of similar posts have been made on this forum:

e.g.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-mining-pointless-6408
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/usefulness-of-the-work-performed-335
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/what-is-all-this-computing-power-used-for-305182
And many more, all worth reading for ideas on this topic. But I think this is the best one so far Smiley

Against Bitcoin, there are many stories that discuss the negatives, such as this "Virtual Bitcoin Mining Is a Real-World Environmental Disaster"http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-12/virtual-bitcoin-mining-is-a-real-world-environmental-disaster.html
... and many more

I have recently become more interested in Proof Of Stake systems for cryptocurrencies, such as Peercoin and Nxt. With these there is apparently little or no need for mining after the initial distribution. So then we can use our electricity for something else. But distribution is important too and at least we all get a fair shot of finding a block in Bitcoin, if we buy enough hashing power.

I still believe Bitcoin uses less energy than traditional banking systems, for the same value. I came to decide that there probably is not an alternative to Bitcoin's "wastefulness" unless some genius will come forth with a new solution.

Bitcoin does all it is supposed to, and if the solution is a compromise in some important regard, then I don't think it is a true solution.
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
thanks lopalcar - this is exactly my point: to limit the cost of infrastructure (mainly PoW) as much as possible (e.g. introducing some minimal transaction fee), moving the computational cost nearly entirely to the mining process: of finding solutions for some scientifically valuable problem.
sr. member
Activity: 910
Merit: 253
you guys are months behind on these alt coins.....
sr. member
Activity: 312
Merit: 254
I will try to post something when I have some free time Cheesy
This is a very interesting topic for me and I think many people are missunderstanding you.
In sumary, I thought like you some time ago, but with the evolution in cryptocurrencys I doubt this kind of project could become very usefull, we should build a system for cloud decentraliced computing but not necessary limited to be a PoW algorith which I think it's very difficult to code and very limited in terms of real utility.
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