Seed phrase secure storage ideas, like multisig?

dzungmobile

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Quote from: bitmover on August 26, 2024, 02:19:53 PM

If all coins are yours, I really don't think this is the best. Multisig is important when you hols funds of multiple people

It's more acceptable to lose coins that are not related to business and other people. If it is my coins, I am ready to lose it in a single signature wallet. I obviously know how to secure its access with a strong password and know risk that a single signature wallet is more vulnerable to hacks.

Multisig wallets are more secure than single signature wallets but it costs me more when making on-chain transactions, that I don't like to pay extra fees.

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I think a simple piece of paper with your 24 words (and a passphrase) and a backup in another paper in another place is enough.

Backups need to be stored safely in both places. There are other ways to do backups with metal sheets

Metal Bitcoin storage reviews with different tests (temperature, pressure, stress ...)
Securing your seed phrase with washers.

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Don't try to overcomplicate things...

It's classic advice for wallet backup.

How to back up a seed phrase

AYOBA

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Quote from: eiger3970 on May 04, 2024, 10:37:52 PM

Hello,
from various information sources, by summary concludes the current seed phrase storage as best:
2 of 3 multisig.

My understanding is a seed phrase will have 24 words.
These 24 words are then engraved onto 3 stainless steel hexkeys, so when 2 of these hex keys are brought together, the 24 words are revealed.
Then the user needs to enter the passphrase to fully recover the wallet.

The seed phrase is very important for everyone to secure to avoid someone to to get access to his wallet, because once a person mistakenly lose his seed phrase what ever he have in his wallet can definitely gone since immediately the scammers get access to your wallet they will swap everything from your wallet.

There are some people that they can create a wallet in the same device and the same time store them in the same place how will come and identify the first and second, I know for those that are engaged in the crypto aspect for a long time knows what their doing unlike the newbie’s that they don’t know where to start.

bitmover

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Quote from: eiger3970 on May 04, 2024, 10:37:52 PM

Hello,
from various information sources, by summary concludes the current seed phrase storage as best:
2 of 3 multisig.

If all coins are yours, I really don't think this is the best. Multisig is important when you hols funds of multiple people

I think a simple piece of paper with your 24 words (and a passphrase) and a backup in another paper in another place is enough.

Don't try to overcomplicate things...

Zaguru12

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Quote from: Publictalk792 on August 25, 2024, 08:04:15 PM

Yes that is right multisig is not needed for one person but it is good for two or more people like couples or business partners. It adds extra security by requiring multiple approvals for transactions making it harder for hackers to steal funds.

Having multisig as option is great for those who want more security. But for one person it might be too much. Getting separate wallet for each person like spouse might be better idea. And it is good that Keystone offers multisig for those who want it. But single users should think carefully about whether they need it considering both benefits and complexity.

All though I don’t totally disagree with your claim that multisig for a person is actually more of a redundancy in terms of actual safe guarding one’s wallet I think it is not still bad and a better security measure. Infact it is the best set of Wallet creation if some certain things can be kept in check. The number one thing is the that the the co signing wallets should never be created or even imported on the same device because it defeats the purpose of its creation which is one point of failure. Secondly the seed phrase or private key for each wallet should be actually stored at different locations too.

If anyone cannot fulfill this two criteria then I don’t see the reason to go for a multi sig wallet I think it is best to just stick to a single sig wallet and probably add a passphrase to the single sig as a second layer to the wallet.

Mia Chloe

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Quote from: eiger3970 on May 04, 2024, 10:37:52 PM

Hello,
from various information sources, by summary concludes the current seed phrase storage as best:
2 of 3 multisig.
My understanding is a seed phrase will have 24 words.
These 24 words are then engraved onto 3 stainless steel hexkeys, so when 2 of these hex keys are brought together, the 24 words are revealed.
Then the user needs to enter the passphrase to fully recover the wallet.
So, is there a cold wallet with the software to make the multisig, as I don't know how to 'split' the 24 words into the 3 engraved stainless steel hexkeys?

Op if you are talking about an offline backup most times referred to as paper wallet backup, you can split the seed phrase into 3 places or two places depending on your preference anyways you have to make sure that in the course of doing this the seed words are still arranged serially like in your wallet creation device. For bitcoin the seed words is defaultly 12 words though you can extend them with custom words or even increase the word count to about 18 or 24.

Anyways I personally don't fancy splitting the seed words because of the idea of misplacing one of the combinations or worse mixing them up. As for hex it's more of a private key thing and no one would want to go through the stress of engraving a master key on steel. Besides that all keys are generated from the seed either directly or indirectly.

BlackBoss_

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Quote from: Luzin on August 25, 2024, 08:58:06 PM

I think Multisig is suitable for shared asset storage, but for private ownership I don't think it's really necessary.

Multisig wallet can be used for a company treasury or for personal wealth storage. Depends on security level you want, you can assign 2, 3 or 4 or more cosigners for a multisig wallet. It's not true to say with private (personal) ownership, a multisig wallet is not necessary.

Do you see that some campaign managers use multisig wallet to escrow campaign funds?

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It would probably be safer, but if it's a personal asset it looks bad.

Why it looks bad?

Do you mind to share why?

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I chose to establish and secure assets without multi sig. I just continue to be careful about my seed and privacy so that no one else even my own wife knows.

You can do it with single signature wallet, it's your freedom to make decision, but other people might have own reasons that are different than yours, to set up and use multisig wallet.

One of disadvantage of multisig wallet is it requires more satoshi for transaction fees but if you can afford it, it's good wallet type to use.

Luzin

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Quote from: Findingnemo on May 05, 2024, 10:35:12 AM

Kind of confused what's really the purpose, is it about finding ways to store the seed words? Then why we are talking about multi Sig and passphrase.

I think Multisig is suitable for shared asset storage, but for private ownership I don't think it's really necessary. It would probably be safer, but if it's a personal asset it looks bad. I chose to establish and secure assets without multi sig. I just continue to be careful about my seed and privacy so that no one else even my own wife knows.

We also discussed this issue in local forums. There are a few options that I think we can make and are pretty safe. From the easiest to the least requires effort and of course I think it's safer. We discuss 5 storage seed or prifat keys options
1. Storing digitally
2. Writing on paper
3. Printing on metal
4. Carving in stone
5. With SS304 plate

CMIIW

Publictalk792

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Quote from: Crypt0Gore on August 25, 2024, 02:15:47 AM

My hardware wallet 'keystone' has this multisig available but I don't see any need to use it because it is just me only, this is pretty good for couples or more than two people but I would rather just get one for my spouse to use instead.

I also believe that this idea makes your wallet even more tougher to steal from or hack, but this is just me, I can't say about other crypto hardware wallet but Keystone supports this feature if that's what you are looking for.

Yes that is right multisig is not needed for one person but it is good for two or more people like couples or business partners. It adds extra security by requiring multiple approvals for transactions making it harder for hackers to steal funds.

Having multisig as option is great for those who want more security. But for one person it might be too much. Getting separate wallet for each person like spouse might be better idea. And it is good that Keystone offers multisig for those who want it. But single users should think carefully about whether they need it considering both benefits and complexity.

Mr.right85

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There exists security systems alright but, too much suffistication can create a problem for you as well. Should you forget any step in the combination, your stock and off it goes with your keys.

I've been more traditional in my having to secure my private key. You leave it in plan sight, where one might not know the importance but, its right there.

Engraving is giving too much value to that metal and its so not my style. It might be a safe means, one that could be really durable but, haven’t had much value for me.

Crypt0Gore

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My hardware wallet 'keystone' has this multisig available but I don't see any need to use it because it is just me only, this is pretty good for couples or more than two people but I would rather just get one for my spouse to use instead.

I also believe that this idea makes your wallet even more tougher to steal from or hack, but this is just me, I can't say about other crypto hardware wallet but Keystone supports this feature if that's what you are looking for.

nc50lc

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Quote from: eiger3970 on August 24, 2024, 10:14:13 PM

However, it appears multisig creates 3 mnemonic/seed phrases anyway, so multisig seems to provide the mnemonic/seed phrase storage protection as well as payment protections.
Versus... SSSS which is specifically for mnemonic/seed phrase storage.

That's right, but take note that spending MultiSig is a more expensive than single Sig.
Depending on the number of required signatures and script type, the transaction's input size alone can reach more than a minimum of 100vB per input spent.

e.g.: Include the rest of the transaction's data and it'll be about 190vB for a "1input-2outputs" 2-of-3 P2WSH MultiSig spend.
That's not much with a low 'fee rate' of 1sat/vB but the difference will be night and day when you have to use 10sat/vB and spending two or more inputs.
e.g.: About 500vB for a "4inputs-2outputs" 2-of-3 P2WSH MultiSig spend, that's a total of 0.00005BTC fee for 10sat/vB fee rate.

So, you should consider that when deciding on your wallet's setup.
One deciding factor is how often you send to your wallet:

Frequent inbound transactions with smaller amount is worse for MultiSig setup because it'll produce more UTXO to spend as input
and your outbound transactions would use more inputs to cover the recipient's amount.
(This is applicable to any regular wallet but MultiSig's size is higher so the impact will be worse)
But if you're planning not to receive too often, and receive in higher amounts instead (accumulate more before sending to the wallet), fees will be smaller when spending.
(still higher than single signature of same number of inputs though)

eiger3970

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Yes, I'm confusing the mnemonic/seed phrase storage process.
However, it appears multisig creates 3 mnemonic/seed phrases anyway, so multisig seems to provide the mnemonic/seed phrase storage protection as well as payment protections.
Versus...
SSSS which is specifically for mnemonic/seed phrase storage.

Saint-loup

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Quote from: eiger3970 on May 04, 2024, 10:37:52 PM

Hello,
from various information sources, by summary concludes the current seed phrase storage as best:
2 of 3 multisig.

My understanding is a seed phrase will have 24 words.
These 24 words are then engraved onto 3 stainless steel hexkeys, so when 2 of these hex keys are brought together, the 24 words are revealed.
Then the user needs to enter the passphrase to fully recover the wallet.

So, is there a cold wallet with the software to make the multisig, as I don't know how to 'split' the 24 words into the 3 engraved stainless steel hexkeys?

You are obviously talking about a 2 of 3 Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme for splitting your seed instead of a 2 of 3 multisig wallet. With a multisig wallet you won't need to reveal a common seed. Wallets belonging to the scheme will just need to "cosign" transactions, and being enough cosigners to reach the defined threshold.
With a SSSS you will just split your actual seed into several shares, and transactions won't need to be cosigned for being valid.
You can use Trezor wallets for that, the iancoleman tool https://iancoleman.io/slip39/ or some softwares https://github.com/satoshilabs/slips/blob/master/slip-0039.md#other-implementations
Electrum accepts slip39 seeds but is not able to generate them unfortunately.

Findingnemo

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Quote from: eiger3970 on May 04, 2024, 10:37:52 PM

Hello,
from various information sources, by summary concludes the current seed phrase storage as best:
2 of 3 multisig.

My understanding is a seed phrase will have 24 words.
These 24 words are then engraved onto 3 stainless steel hexkeys, so when 2 of these hex keys are brought together, the 24 words are revealed.
Then the user needs to enter the passphrase to fully recover the wallet.

So, is there a cold wallet with the software to make the multisig, as I don't know how to 'split' the 24 words into the 3 engraved stainless steel hexkeys?

If it's 2 of 3 multi Sig wallet then it would have three seeds, so you need to store three of them secure in whatever way you want to and the purpose of multiple signature wallet is to avoid single point of failure so if one of your seeds exposed then it would still require another 1 from the remaining two to have access to the funds.

Passphrase is extended custom seed word that is to increase the security further so if it's 24 seeds then the passphrase is 25th word, without it you would create different wallet and addresses.

Kind of confused what's really the purpose, is it about finding ways to store the seed words? Then why we are talking about multi Sig and passphrase.

Marvelman

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Quote from: eiger3970 on May 04, 2024, 10:37:52 PM

So, is there a cold wallet with the software to make the multisig, as I don't know how to 'split' the 24 words into the 3 engraved stainless steel hexkeys?

OP, you probably mean "Shamir's Secret Sharing Scheme". SSSS, as it's known, allows folks to split up their wallet recovery phrase into multiple parts called shares. Rather than keeping that long string of words in one place, the shares let you spread the information around for safekeeping. Some wallets build the scheme right in so splitting and recombining happens behind the scenes. Takes the hassle out of managing the shares yourself, which helps avoid sloppiness.

nc50lc

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Quote from: eiger3970 on May 04, 2024, 10:37:52 PM

My understanding is a seed phrase will have 24 words.

For 2-of-3 MultiSig Setup, you'll be backing-up three separate seed phrases.
That "2-of-3" signifies: the 'number of required signatures to sign transactions' - of - 'total number of cosigners'.
Since it's "of-3", you'll be creating three cosigners wallets which contain their own seed phrase.

12 words per cosigner is safe, but if you can backup 24 words in a single steel hexkeys and the wallet can generate 24 words, then go for it.

Read the links in the reply above for more information about MultiSig wallet setup.

OcTradism

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Your seed phrase can have 12, 15, 18, 21 or 24 words, that depends on bits of randomness when you create your wallet by yourself or with a wallet software.

Multisig wallet or cold storage wallet can be good for you, and you can see guides below to understand steps to create them. With multisig wallet, you will have to pay more transaction fee than a single signature wallet.

There is another type, 2FA wallet like with Electrum wallet software. You will have to pay extra fee to Trusted coin which provides 2FA for your wallet.

[GUIDE] How to Safely Download and Verify Electrum
Electrum wallet types
Creating a multisig wallet
Creating a cold storage wallet

How to back up a seed phrase?

eiger3970

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Hello,
from various information sources, by summary concludes the current seed phrase storage as best:
2 of 3 multisig.

My understanding is a seed phrase will have 24 words.
These 24 words are then engraved onto 3 stainless steel hexkeys, so when 2 of these hex keys are brought together, the 24 words are revealed.
Then the user needs to enter the passphrase to fully recover the wallet.

So, is there a cold wallet with the software to make the multisig, as I don't know how to 'split' the 24 words into the 3 engraved stainless steel hexkeys?

Topic: Seed phrase secure storage ideas, like multisig? (Read 236 times)