Topic: SegWit and LN are really interesting altcoins... but that is not Bitcoin. - page 4. (Read 3571 times)

Lightning uses Bitcoins. On the Bitcoin blockchain.

That's where all the money going through Lightining channels is coming from, and going to. The Bitcoin blockchain.

Ergo, Lightning is not an altcoin.



Franky seems to think that his massively overcomplicated "explanation" is actually going to convince anyone who is worth convincing.

carton fails to provide a reason why blockstreams LN is not an altcoin, even where:
it uses a different node
contains no bitcoin blockchain,
uses a different unit of measure,
uses a signed instant 'payment' method incompatible to bitcoin consensus(thus gets rejected if they tried broadcasting the 'payment')
requires deleting the 'payment' and setting up a hopefully ethical agreement when signing a bitcoin tx when settling(much like withdrawing exchange balance)

so he then meanders to attack the people that even dare to highlight the reality of stuff blockstream create.

i defend bitcoin(open financial system), carlton defends blockstream(dictatorship desiring corporation)

now my point.
its best to call a spade a spade and actually accept what a spade can do
and cannot do. then while remaining with reality realise that a spade is a useful tool for some people and able to clearly show what a spade does.

unlike some people who pretended NXT was bitcoin 2.0 and other things. which helped no one but purely done to defend and promote the business behind the concept rather then highlight the advantages and disadvantages of the technology/altcoin

lauda is correct segwit is part of bitcoin.
sidechains and blockstreams LN however is an altcoin, that is crediting users via a peg that suppose to represent bitcoin at certain ratios.

the funny thing is, if revealing the honest truth hurts. then there is something those hurt by the truth want to hide.

if you feel the technology is sound then be honest and show what it can and cannot do. rather then circle jerk the utupian dream of perfection purely to give some rep' points to the business conceiving it.

i personally do see the positives of where LN can be useful. but i also see the flaws.
there is no point "selling" the usefulness before its even usable, but highlighting the flaws can help fix the issues to make it useful.
and there is definitely no point "selling" the utopian dream of perfection to honour a business. its open source after all. the business should not matter

Well, it's not an inability to understand. Given that the Bitcoin trolls are only ever interested in trying to scare non-techy Bitcoin users away, it's highly likely that the trolls are actually paid shills.

For instance, Franky1 almost certainly has more than one person using the account; there's one Franky that can spell, speak good English, type like they're sober etc.... and then there's another Franky (who turns up around 4-7 PM GMT) who doesn't have complete English grammar, can't spell, can't type etc.

When you consider that Franky posts all day long, for a constant 24 hours, I don't think there's much doubt. I put this to "him", he claimed he doesn't sleep at all, lol. And this is aside from his uber-troll false arguments, that's a whole other ball game.

What is Segwit and what is LN?

What is the purpose of this thread?

Why do you care about Segwit and LN?

When will people understand that we need to build on top of Bitcoin otherwise we will never properly scale? Did people back then complain that stuff was being built on top of the TCP/IP and therefore that was not Bitcoin? This is getting ridiculous with those trolls.

quoted for preservation

I don't think you understand how Counterparty and Omni work. They don't have their own blockchain, I believe they use OP_RETURN data on the bitcoin blockchain to create assets and transactions of those assets. So, they're not separate blockchains. Whether they are altcoins or something else is semantics I guess.

Reaction after reading title and first post:

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Segwit has nothing to do with "altcoins". It is the same chain, because it IS Bitcoin. Anyone claiming otherwise is either a paid troll or delusional. For something to be an altcoin, it would need to have its own chain, right? LN is a 'collection of payment channels' in a sense, not an altcoin.

The more and more I understand the Lightning Network the more I can see its similarities with the Ripple Network. Also it is better because it might have all the functionalities and none of that XRP tokens that are mostly held by the founders and the company behind it. The system on how to send value in the network is also better in the Lightning Network. Ripple uses financial institutions as gateways to transfer value to the network while LN uses its payment channel system.

thats the right way to think about it
have an open mind and think about all possibilities good and bad
good: to benefit users
bad: to suggest solutions to benefit progress which benefits users
bad: to know it could divert security (hashpower / node counts) away from bitcoin.


keep that open mind and think of all possibilities... dont become close minded like carlton

[1]though its not a LN feature but a bitcoin a smart contract feature, you are also correct that when locking bitcoins into a multisig can lead to many possibilities.
such as
[2]you are then credited with units pegged at 1:XXXX in a different network or node to then use in a different system, the smart contract feature is the mechanism planned to be used for things like side chains, LN and other protocols in conception and production right now.

and like you say, these altcoins and sidechains and offchain payment systems can have different possibilities, but also some flaws and limitations. which is what the devs need to work on before making a public release.

Interesting arguments from both sides, Carlton versus Franky and the OP, about LN's "currency" being an altcoin or not. For me technically it could be but it is not. But then again it could really be. What some see as bad, I see opportunity here. I view the Lightning Network as something like a pseudo bank account in which it can be made and used as a bridge between blockchains. Like a decentralized exchange.

Thank you OP for pointing out that LN could be really an "altcoin" because it just opened the possibilities of what it really is. I am very excited on how this all works in practice.

A negroloid telling others to get a dictionary, lol.  Hey 'thug', how's life?

Qualify any of those statements with facts lol. Off you go to en.bitcoin.it Franky, see you back here in an hour, huh (Franky's doing his homework ). You might need to get dictionary.com ready in another tab, lol

1. REALITY: bitcoin wont accept more units because it screws the maximum possible units that are minable within bitcoin
   REALITY: bitcoins stay in one place onchain and on a different codebase people play around with something they have been credited with (an altcoin)
   REALITY: a LN payment dual-signed to show: A owns XXmillisats and B owns XX millisats will get rejected by bitcoin.

2. THEORETICAL SCENARIO: in your dream where you had millisats included in bitcoin (not going to happen, but talking about your dream) it would be inflation

How can the different units be "incompatible altcoins" AND constitute monetary inflation. You're going to need to pick one or the other, because they cannot both be true at once.


(hint: they're both false, lol)



Right before that, I said that any notion of "compatibility" doesn't make any sense before change to the codebase. That's not called "incompatible", that's what's known as "impossible".

And of course, once any change to the unit granularity is made, there won't be any question of  compatibility then either, as Lightning is just a different type of Bitcoin transaction. No more, no less.

i said altcoin. you said miner
i said altcoin. you said blockchain.

there are MANY altcoins without needing mining
there are MANY altcoins without a blockchain

LN is an altcoin because the units of measure do not match thus making signatures not match and txids not match.
if you compared a bitcoin tx measured in sats to a LN tx measured in millisats.
they do not match they are not compatible just like monero and bitcoin are not compatible.

no one of any intelligence and coding knowledge is proposing to add any units. so LN payments are not compatible, thus LN is an alt.
with btc hodled on bitcoins blockchain people are credited with and play around with millisats using a different codebase/node.

it was only you that suggested it would be compatible if bitcoin added some units



by the way i laugh when your own words ruin your own argument

Link your evidence.

paid shill with finger in blockstream's $55 million

How many extra units will be added to the 21 million maximum, o' font of Bitcoin knowledge Lord Franky Nakamoto?

You imply a separate blockchain for Lightning transactions in your waffle, so try not to mention such things if you don't want them to be led to their illogical conclusion, lol



How

Many

Units

Will

Be

Added

Answer

The

Question

Franky