Seizing BTC wallet holders? Governments should be afraid to do it - page 2.

TheKoziTwo

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Carlton Banks: Again, a technicality. The private keys are generated from your password, the law don't care if private keys are unencrypted, the password is key to protected information and that is where the law applies.

Quote from: Rassah on August 26, 2013, 03:57:48 PM

Quote from: TheKoziTwo on August 26, 2013, 03:51:13 PM

They private key is the encrypted information they want, you have the key, give it up or go to jail. Even if the law won't allow this atm, it's a small technical change and it's all the same.

Wouldn't they have to prove that you still have access to the keys? And wouldn't it be fairly easy to devise new techniques to keep anyone from finding out exactly how many coins you have? Plus you could do some really crazy things with multi-sig. Like lock your coins from being spent for a time, or even set it up so that even if they get your password, they can't do anything with your coins without catching or finding someone else.

You're guilty until you can prove otherwise. How can you prove without shadow of doubt that you don't have the keys in your brain?

http://decryptedmatrix.com/live/encryption-becomes-illegal-in-the-uk-jail-time-for-failure-to-provide-keys/

The multi-sig concept is great, but if I understand this law correctly it won't matter. If they believe you got the full key you will have to disprove them. Ofc you can't do that.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: TheKoziTwo on August 26, 2013, 03:51:13 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on August 26, 2013, 02:53:39 PM

Quote from: TheKoziTwo on August 26, 2013, 01:08:01 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on August 26, 2013, 12:48:44 PM

Brain wallet seeds are unencrypted information, and so are the private keys you generate from them, so your first point does not apply.

No, password to your truecrypt container is also unencrypted information, and that is what the law require you to give up.

Quote from: axus on August 26, 2013, 01:01:17 PM

Government doesn't need to decrypt/steal your bitcoins in order to stop you from using them. They just take your computers and little slips of paper, now your bitcoins are "gone".

I think you two are struggling with the brainwallet concept. No truecrypt container, no computer, no paper. It's a mnemonic for seeding a valid private key that you remember using your brain

They private key is the encrypted information they want, you have the key, give it up or go to jail. Even if the law won't allow this atm, it's a small technical change and it's all the same.

Rassah

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Quote from: TheKoziTwo on August 26, 2013, 03:51:13 PM

They private key is the encrypted information they want, you have the key, give it up or go to jail. Even if the law won't allow this atm, it's a small technical change and it's all the same.

Wouldn't they have to prove that you still have access to the keys? And wouldn't it be fairly easy to devise new techniques to keep anyone from finding out exactly how many coins you have? Plus you could do some really crazy things with multi-sig. Like lock your coins from being spent for a time, or even set it up so that even if they get your password, they can't do anything with your coins without catching or finding someone else.

TheKoziTwo

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on August 26, 2013, 02:53:39 PM

Quote from: TheKoziTwo on August 26, 2013, 01:08:01 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on August 26, 2013, 12:48:44 PM

Brain wallet seeds are unencrypted information, and so are the private keys you generate from them, so your first point does not apply.

No, password to your truecrypt container is also unencrypted information, and that is what the law require you to give up.

Quote from: axus on August 26, 2013, 01:01:17 PM

Government doesn't need to decrypt/steal your bitcoins in order to stop you from using them. They just take your computers and little slips of paper, now your bitcoins are "gone".

I think you two are struggling with the brainwallet concept. No truecrypt container, no computer, no paper. It's a mnemonic for seeding a valid private key that you remember using your brain

They private key is the encrypted information they want, you have the key, give it up or go to jail. Even if the law won't allow this atm, it's a small technical change and it's all the same.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: Rassah on August 26, 2013, 02:51:08 PM

^^^ And this is why we need built-in mixing, anonymizing, or Zerocoin.

The Proof of Execution off-chain mixing ideas sound like the more powerful (and perhaps more resource-realistic) solution to this problem. Early days with that, of what I can understand of it.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: TheKoziTwo on August 26, 2013, 01:08:01 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on August 26, 2013, 12:48:44 PM

Brain wallet seeds are unencrypted information, and so are the private keys you generate from them, so your first point does not apply.

No, password to your truecrypt container is also unencrypted information, and that is what the law require you to give up.

Quote from: axus on August 26, 2013, 01:01:17 PM

Government doesn't need to decrypt/steal your bitcoins in order to stop you from using them. They just take your computers and little slips of paper, now your bitcoins are "gone".

I think you two are struggling with the brainwallet concept. No truecrypt container, no computer, no paper. It's a mnemonic for seeding a valid private key that you remember using your brain

Rassah

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^^^ And this is why we need built-in mixing, anonymizing, or Zerocoin.

wiggi

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 26, 2013, 12:54:16 PM

Likely, what you have to consider though is in the instance of pot prohibition it doesn't only affect marijuana as a drug but also it's usage as medicine, industrial hemp and using it as a food crop.
A Bitcoin prohibition would have similar deteriorating effects.

I think an outright ban is not very probable, more something like a nasty poison dart.

For example, the government could require that all *merchants* process incoming payments only
through *licensed facilities* i.e. banks with infrastructure to
recognize and block certain blacklisted coins of criminal origin.
And use undercover cops to enforce it.

Regular persons would then be told by mass media to use the same facilities for
storage of their coins and for incoming transactions. This way everyone will be "protected" from "illegal bitcoins".

Rassah

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 26, 2013, 01:41:11 PM

Of course you're right, but still such a situation wouldn't be something to look forward to.

Yes, you're right, it would not be a good idea. I hope that by the time something like this happens, Bitcoin would be at, or close to, a point that any country doing something like this would essentially result in that country putting sanctions on itself, and blocking other countries from doing business with it.

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: Rassah on August 26, 2013, 01:37:58 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 26, 2013, 10:56:19 AM

Someone would still have to store it. It's not like some part of the blockchain could be omitted by everybody.

Sure. And that someone could be China, Iran, North Korea, Iraq, Equador, Chile, Russia, India, Seycheles, or if none of those are willing to, pretty much anyone, anywhere, on a Tor node. Or an I2P node. Or any other anonymizing node.

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 26, 2013, 10:56:19 AM

They could argue it's not the accounting ledger that's illegal but the excess information that is already. And because there are no methods available to prevent somebody to store more illegal information in it it can be declared illegal to posses the block chain.
You have to keep in mind to follow how a bureaucrat would think in case he is supposed to "do something about that".

And that's why drugs are not available anywhere, and CP is no longer on the internet. Sure, it would be a problem for the business that's in a country that bans bitcoin, but it won't be a problem for any businesses outside of that. USA banned online gambling. Doesn't mean that business is dead.

Of course you're right, but still such a situation wouldn't be something to look forward to.

Rassah

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 26, 2013, 10:56:19 AM

Someone would still have to store it. It's not like some part of the blockchain could be omitted by everybody.

Sure. And that someone could be China, Iran, North Korea, Iraq, Equador, Chile, Russia, India, Seycheles, or if none of those are willing to, pretty much anyone, anywhere, on a Tor node. Or an I2P node. Or any other anonymizing node.

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 26, 2013, 10:56:19 AM

They could argue it's not the accounting ledger that's illegal but the excess information that is already. And because there are no methods available to prevent somebody to store more illegal information in it it can be declared illegal to posses the block chain.
You have to keep in mind to follow how a bureaucrat would think in case he is supposed to "do something about that".

And that's why drugs are not available anywhere, and CP is no longer on the internet. Sure, it would be a problem for the business that's in a country that bans bitcoin, but it won't be a problem for any businesses outside of that. USA banned online gambling. Doesn't mean that business is dead.

Quote from: axus on August 26, 2013, 01:01:17 PM

Government doesn't need to decrypt/steal your bitcoins in order to stop you from using them. They just take your computers and little slips of paper, now your bitcoins are "gone".

Well, they can take away my pieces of paper and my computers, but I have a bunch of other copies of those papers stashed around, and they're all pretty much useless without whatever keycodes I have in my head. Hell, even if it gets to the point where they can read my brain for passwords, my password could simply be "The 5th item from the bottom at such and such location, plus the number on this page on that book at that library, + large string of characters hidden there, which I can never remember because it's too big." I could even memorize a ton of such places, and know that only a few of them are legit, or which order they must be put together in to make a password.

TheKoziTwo

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on August 26, 2013, 12:48:44 PM

Quote from: TheKoziTwo on August 26, 2013, 11:07:36 AM

In the UK you can get sentenced to prison for up to 5 years for not giving up your encryption keys. I guess this law would work for those not giving up their bitcoin private keys as well. Once you have spent 5 years in prison they'll just ask you again, and if you still refuse, back you go. They may not have your bitcoins, but they will have your freedom. Luckily this fascism hasn't spread to many countries yet, but the trend is there and it wouldn't surprise me to see this implemented across the world.

From my understanding it don't matter if you "forgot" the key.

Oh and brain scanners are also making good progress, it would be foolish to believe government won't use them for "SERIOUS crimes" once that becomes viable.

Brain wallet seeds are unencrypted information, and so are the private keys you generate from them, so your first point does not apply.

No, password to your truecrypt container is also unencrypted information, and that is what the law require you to give up.

axus

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Government doesn't need to decrypt/steal your bitcoins in order to stop you from using them. They just take your computers and little slips of paper, now your bitcoins are "gone".

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: wiggi on August 26, 2013, 12:26:19 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 26, 2013, 10:56:19 AM

It is clear that such a thing would be difficult to enforce, and somebody somewhere would still store the blockchain regardless of the potential consequences (a lot of people actually). But it would sure be a pain for anybody with a company to openly use Bitcoin. Think about how pot prohibition works.

Seems to work like this:
- X is banned at some point for arbitrary and nonsensical reasons (extra information in the blockchain or not)
- Availability or price is not affected by the ban.
- Additionally thousand synthetic high powered versions of X are developed and fly under the radar.

Likely, what you have to consider though is in the instance of pot prohibition it doesn't only affect marijuana as a drug but also it's usage as medicine, industrial hemp and using it as a food crop.
A Bitcoin prohibition would have similar deteriorating effects.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: TheKoziTwo on August 26, 2013, 11:07:36 AM

In the UK you can get sentenced to prison for up to 5 years for not giving up your encryption keys. I guess this law would work for those not giving up their bitcoin private keys as well. Once you have spent 5 years in prison they'll just ask you again, and if you still refuse, back you go. They may not have your bitcoins, but they will have your freedom. Luckily this fascism hasn't spread to many countries yet, but the trend is there and it wouldn't surprise me to see this implemented across the world.

From my understanding it don't matter if you "forgot" the key.

Oh and brain scanners are also making good progress, it would be foolish to believe government won't use them for "SERIOUS crimes" once that becomes viable.

Brain wallet seeds are unencrypted information, and so are the private keys you generate from them, so your first point does not apply.

The second point? Still science fiction really, and I doubt if that sort of thing would be effective on all subjects.

wiggi

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 26, 2013, 10:56:19 AM

It is clear that such a thing would be difficult to enforce, and somebody somewhere would still store the blockchain regardless of the potential consequences (a lot of people actually). But it would sure be a pain for anybody with a company to openly use Bitcoin. Think about how pot prohibition works.

Seems to work like this:
- X is banned at some point for arbitrary and nonsensical reasons (extra information in the blockchain or not)
- Availability or price is not affected by the ban.
- Additionally thousand synthetic high powered versions of X are developed and fly under the radar.

starsoccer9

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Brain wallets are not 100% sercure. Brain reading is already in the works. It has been used already to see what letters people are looking at simply by brain patterns. The real only 100% sercure way would be a brain wallet plus a string stored somewhere very safe. When you The string then acts as a basic decryption key for the letters you memorized.

This is safer as because both parts are useless with out the other one. Just my idea tho. Any other thoughts?

TheKoziTwo

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In the UK you can get sentenced to prison for up to 5 years for not giving up your encryption keys. I guess this law would work for those not giving up their bitcoin private keys as well. Once you have spent 5 years in prison they'll just ask you again, and if you still refuse, back you go. They may not have your bitcoins, but they will have your freedom. Luckily this fascism hasn't spread to many countries yet, but the trend is there and it wouldn't surprise me to see this implemented across the world.

From my understanding it don't matter if you "forgot" the key.

Oh and brain scanners are also making good progress, it would be foolish to believe government won't use them for "SERIOUS crimes" once that becomes viable.

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: Rassah on August 26, 2013, 09:35:35 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on August 25, 2013, 07:02:25 PM

A brain wallet is pretty much useless if the Blockchain is declared illegal information. That's even the most likely scenario of a goverment crackdown - CP links encoded into it ring a bell?

Blockchain stored in nations where it's not illegal, everyone else uses it the same way Bitcoin Wallet for Android does it, where it only requests balances and relevant info for the addresses it's keeping track of. No need to keep copies of the illegal information. Done.

Someone would still have to store it. It's not like some part of the blockchain could be omitted by everybody.

Quote from: Rassah on August 26, 2013, 09:35:35 AM

Besides, it would be pretty baseless to make something like an accounting ledger illegal.

They could argue it's not the accounting ledger that's illegal but the excess information that is already. And because there are no methods available to prevent somebody to store more illegal information in it it can be declared illegal to posses the block chain.
You have to keep in mind to follow how a bureaucrat would think in case he is supposed to "do something about that".

It is clear that such a thing would be difficult to enforce, and somebody somewhere would still store the blockchain regardless of the potential consequences (a lot of people actually). But it would sure be a pain for anybody with a company to openly use Bitcoin. Think about how pot prohibition works.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: greyhawk on August 26, 2013, 05:20:09 AM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on August 25, 2013, 04:58:08 PM

Brain wallet holders will render it useless.

And people say that crypto-anarchists have a bleak outlook! greyhawk's scared o' tir'ney!

Topic: Seizing BTC wallet holders? Governments should be afraid to do it - page 2. (Read 5246 times)