Selling your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys.

redsn0w

legendary

Activity: 1778

Merit: 1043

#Free market

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 02, 2015, 09:11:40 AM

Quote from: redsn0w on May 02, 2015, 07:40:07 AM

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 02, 2015, 07:27:17 AM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on May 01, 2015, 04:51:50 PM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. ....

It is possible, but....
I do not think he would "sell" his wallet.dat to some secret buyer, and then that buyer would not move all coins once, to ensure their control.
If what you say did indeed happen (theoretically), I would think Satoshi would of passed the wallet.dat to someone, but only if he would be dead soon.

So in that event, he is dead now and his coins are in the hands of a friend/his spouse or his child(ren).

Selling a wallet.dat (and not moving the coins) is too risky for everyone otherwise.

Do you really think Satoshi would trust someone that much?
You know Satoshi was very secretive and made sure it would be difficult if not impossimble to ever be found.

A question, why should he trust another person instead to trust himself? Is this a basic concept of the whole bitcoin 'system' ... don't trust no one, trust only yourself (aka your wallet).

I remember that satoshi said (here in the forum) that we should never delete an 'address' or worst an entire wallet.dat , because it is not recommended.

Exactly, and that is why I don't think he would trust anyone else with all that wealth.

If you will trust a third part service all the whole (or entire) bitcoin concept will 'go'. I think it is better to pay in the traditional way, instead to give the private key(s) to another person.

Quote from: Lboss on May 02, 2015, 09:20:05 AM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. Are there any consequences if I did this thing to "sell" my bitcoins?

I really dont understand. Why do you want to sell your coins with wallet.dat?

Do you think will it worth more than its balance? If so , why people give extra money for your wallet when there are lots of issues like another copy of your wallet.

Maybe because someone doesn't have a connection internet and he can give face to face the copy of the wallet.dat , but as you said ... it is really an insecure way to give 'btc' to another person. Because who knows if you have deleted that private keys? You can still own the wallet.dat.

Lboss

sr. member

Activity: 412

Merit: 251

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. Are there any consequences if I did this thing to "sell" my bitcoins?

I really dont understand. Why do you want to sell your coins with wallet.dat?

Do you think will it worth more than its balance? If so , why people give extra money for your wallet when there are lots of issues like another copy of your wallet.

Phat Buzz Tart

member

Activity: 308

Merit: 10

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. Are there any consequences if I did this thing to "sell" my bitcoins?

Well how will I trust you didn't make a copy of the wallet and keys?
How can you prove to me that you didn't?

I don't know if there will be any any consequences, but I don't see the point in something like this.

S4VV4S

hero member

Activity: 1582

Merit: 502

Quote from: redsn0w on May 02, 2015, 07:40:07 AM

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 02, 2015, 07:27:17 AM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on May 01, 2015, 04:51:50 PM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. ....

It is possible, but....
I do not think he would "sell" his wallet.dat to some secret buyer, and then that buyer would not move all coins once, to ensure their control.
If what you say did indeed happen (theoretically), I would think Satoshi would of passed the wallet.dat to someone, but only if he would be dead soon.

So in that event, he is dead now and his coins are in the hands of a friend/his spouse or his child(ren).

Selling a wallet.dat (and not moving the coins) is too risky for everyone otherwise.

Do you really think Satoshi would trust someone that much?
You know Satoshi was very secretive and made sure it would be difficult if not impossimble to ever be found.

A question, why should he trust another person instead to trust himself? Is this a basic concept of the whole bitcoin 'system' ... don't trust no one, trust only yourself (aka your wallet).

I remember that satoshi said (here in the forum) that we should never delete an 'address' or worst an entire wallet.dat , because it is not recommended.

Exactly, and that is why I don't think he would trust anyone else with all that wealth.

yayayo

legendary

Activity: 1806

Merit: 1024

Quote from: pawel7777 on May 01, 2015, 04:32:26 PM

Think I'm missing something here, the obvious question: why would anyone buy any bitcoins this way?

There are some risks to the seller (as noted by Shorena) but buyer's risk of losing coins is huge (I recall some scams being done this way on newbies).

The only benefit I can see is if you're selling control over some rare vanity address.

This could make sense under specific taxation regimes: In case the buyer lives in a jurisdiction that allows for tax-free profits after passing of a holding period, unmoved coins could be presented as evidence for holding the coins long enough. In that case, buyers might even be willing to pay a premium for unmoved coins.

Another motivation might be to cause identity confusion, by changing ownership "off-chain".

However that's mostly theoretical and I don't think it would be worth taking the risk.

ya.ya.yo!

redsn0w

legendary

Activity: 1778

Merit: 1043

#Free market

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 02, 2015, 07:27:17 AM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on May 01, 2015, 04:51:50 PM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. ....

It is possible, but....
I do not think he would "sell" his wallet.dat to some secret buyer, and then that buyer would not move all coins once, to ensure their control.
If what you say did indeed happen (theoretically), I would think Satoshi would of passed the wallet.dat to someone, but only if he would be dead soon.

So in that event, he is dead now and his coins are in the hands of a friend/his spouse or his child(ren).

Selling a wallet.dat (and not moving the coins) is too risky for everyone otherwise.

Do you really think Satoshi would trust someone that much?
You know Satoshi was very secretive and made sure it would be difficult if not impossimble to ever be found.

A question, why should he trust another person instead to trust himself? Is this a basic concept of the whole bitcoin 'system' ... don't trust no one, trust only yourself (aka your wallet).

I remember that satoshi said (here in the forum) that we should never delete an 'address' or worst an entire wallet.dat , because it is not recommended.

hellyeah

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. Are there any consequences if I did this thing to "sell" my bitcoins?

Huh?
I am not sure what I read but...
Why would you do that?
What benefits would it have?

Also, even if Satoshi did that (which he didn't) what makes you think he didn't keep a backup of the wallet?
I am sure someone like Satoshi knows very well how important a wallet backup is.

So to close this,
I don't think that's what happened so do't worry your head about it. Wink

S4VV4S

hero member

Activity: 1582

Merit: 502

Quote from: AgentofCoin on May 01, 2015, 04:51:50 PM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. ....

It is possible, but....
I do not think he would "sell" his wallet.dat to some secret buyer, and then that buyer would not move all coins once, to ensure their control.
If what you say did indeed happen (theoretically), I would think Satoshi would of passed the wallet.dat to someone, but only if he would be dead soon.

So in that event, he is dead now and his coins are in the hands of a friend/his spouse or his child(ren).

Selling a wallet.dat (and not moving the coins) is too risky for everyone otherwise.

Do you really think Satoshi would trust someone that much?
You know Satoshi was very secretive and made sure it would be difficult if not impossimble to ever be found.

Light

hero member

Activity: 742

Merit: 502

Circa 2010

Quote from: Amph on May 02, 2015, 06:48:30 AM

i don't see any problem in selling the entire wallet(just destroy all the backup of it, and possible private key of that wallet), you will then make another fresh one, see it as "one private key"

If you did that - there is a problem for the buyer in that you could potentially move the coins out of the wallet back to you faster than he can. If you already transferred the funds instead - there is absolutely no point in providing the private keys, unless you're trying to use it to fake verification or something. There isn't actually any real use to sharing keys since you cannot ensure that your funds are ever safe there.

Kprawn

legendary

Activity: 1904

Merit: 1074

Selling it that way, bring no obvious advantages and if Satoshi did it with his hoard, it would have seen some "action" already.

Someone would not sit on those coins, without trying to sell some or to move it to other paper wallets.

It could be a method to try and be a bit more anonymous, but I will always worry that the seller would still use the private keys. Shocked

Amph

legendary

Activity: 3248

Merit: 1070

i don't see any problem in selling the entire wallet(just destroy all the backup of it, and possible private key of that wallet), you will then make another fresh one, see it as "one private key"

Light

hero member

Activity: 742

Merit: 502

Circa 2010

Quote from: Q7 on May 02, 2015, 02:39:28 AM

If I'm the buyer I would be reluctant to participate in the trade. What guarantee would I have have, that in the event after paying you the money, you would not transfer out all the btc contained in the address since you also maintain a copy of the private key? It's still sounds more logical that in whatever scenario, it would still be best to use an escrow service.

You'd have no guarantee whatsoever - they could do so instantly if they planned for it (ie. by using a script). The best is still the standard method - if you don't trust the person you're trading with then use an escrow, otherwise send it directly. There really isn't a need for giving away private keys unless you want to trade an account or something you've verified with that address.

countryfree

legendary

Activity: 3066

Merit: 1047

Your country may be your worst enemy

When I gave some BTC to my little cousin (less than one BTC actually), I created a wallet on blockchain.info for him. Then I gave him the wallet complete, explaining him how to use it, but I wouldn't do that to a stranger, nor would I accept a private key as a payment.

tokeweed

legendary

Activity: 3976

Merit: 1421

Life, Love and Laughter...

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. Are there any consequences if I did this thing to "sell" my bitcoins?

So the Bitcoin Foundation isn't broke after all!

Q7

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

If I'm the buyer I would be reluctant to participate in the trade. What guarantee would I have have, that in the event after paying you the money, you would not transfer out all the btc contained in the address since you also maintain a copy of the private key? It's still sounds more logical that in whatever scenario, it would still be best to use an escrow service.

AgentofCoin

legendary

Activity: 1092

Merit: 1001

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. ....

It is possible, but....
I do not think he would "sell" his wallet.dat to some secret buyer, and then that buyer would not move all coins once, to ensure their control.
If what you say did indeed happen (theoretically), I would think Satoshi would of passed the wallet.dat to someone, but only if he would be dead soon.

So in that event, he is dead now and his coins are in the hands of a friend/his spouse or his child(ren).

Selling a wallet.dat (and not moving the coins) is too risky for everyone otherwise.

pawel7777

legendary

Activity: 2436

Merit: 1561

Think I'm missing something here, the obvious question: why would anyone buy any bitcoins this way?

There are some risks to the seller (as noted by Shorena) but buyer's risk of losing coins is huge (I recall some scams being done this way on newbies).

The only benefit I can see is if you're selling control over some rare vanity address.

dothebeats

legendary

Activity: 3542

Merit: 1352

Quote from: shorena on May 01, 2015, 02:58:30 PM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:50:13 PM

-snip-
That seems to be the consequences of it. However, in regards to the bitcointalk-related consequence, if ever I changed my address in the "Stake you address here" thread and also in my profile, I would probably be safe from future intrusions, right? As the address wouldn't be related to me anymore.

Regarding that issue you could certainly post a signed message in said thread with a new address. Merely posting a new address might look like you are the hacker trying to secure the newly stolen account and I am you trying to regain access.

Something along the lines of:

Code:

This is dothebeats from bitcointalk.org and today is xyz
I decided to sell my wallet.dat and thus will no longer have sole control over
the address 1abc I posted in the past. My new address is: 1bcd

Another possible problem with sellings the wallet.dat file might be a leak of privacy. Someone might learn a lot about you if they knew all of your addresses.

I see now. That could probably cause some issues if ever I made such a feat. As for the addresses, it is not a problem because you'll sell it as a whole, together with your bitcoins as well.

shorena

copper member

Activity: 1498

Merit: 1528

No I dont escrow anymore.

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:50:13 PM

-snip-
That seems to be the consequences of it. However, in regards to the bitcointalk-related consequence, if ever I changed my address in the "Stake you address here" thread and also in my profile, I would probably be safe from future intrusions, right? As the address wouldn't be related to me anymore.

Regarding that issue you could certainly post a signed message in said thread with a new address. Merely posting a new address might look like you are the hacker trying to secure the newly stolen account and I am you trying to regain access.

Something along the lines of:

Code:

This is dothebeats from bitcointalk.org and today is xyz
I decided to sell my wallet.dat and thus will no longer have sole control over
the address 1abc I posted in the past. My new address is: 1bcd

Another possible problem with sellings the wallet.dat file might be a leak of privacy. Someone might learn a lot about you if they knew all of your addresses.

dothebeats

legendary

Activity: 3542

Merit: 1352

Quote from: shorena on May 01, 2015, 02:45:46 PM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 01, 2015, 02:41:49 PM

I have been pondering about this idea for some time now, and I think this could be done several times, but is it advisable to sell your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys? I just thought that if Satoshi's coin hadn't move for a long time, maybe he/she sold it using this method. I'm not entirely sure about the idea, but is possible. Are there any consequences if I did this thing to "sell" my bitcoins?

There are certainly risks involved. You would not be able to prove that you have no additional copy or backup of the prviate keys. Thus should you sell your wallet to me, I would transfer the coins ASAP. There would be no reason to complicate things, you could just directly send them to me.

Another problem I can think of is closely bitcointalk related. If I had your private keys I could sign a message with an address you posted in the past. I might be able to convince theymos that I am you and your account should be mine. There are possibly more thing I could do with control over your wallet.

That seems to be the consequences of it. However, in regards to the bitcointalk-related consequence, if ever I changed my address in the "Stake you address here" thread and also in my profile, I would probably be safe from future intrusions, right? As the address wouldn't be related to me anymore.

Topic: Selling your bitcoins together with the wallet.dat and privkeys. (Read 1158 times)