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Topic: [SERIOUS] What do people think of direct cash payments (US stimulus package)? - page 2. (Read 892 times)

legendary
Activity: 3654
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https://bpip.org
In a perfect world you'd be rewarded for being ready for a black swan, not being rewarded for doing the opposite.

The problem with being ready, particularly from a business perspective, is that you would be at a disadvantage vs competition for 99 years out of 100 when a black swan event doesn't happen if you e.g. keep massive cash reserves, don't borrow, insure up the wazoo etc. In other words such a business probably wouldn't survive to reap the benefits. Should the government mandate extreme preparedness so that no one is at a disadvantage? Or just bail them out when it happens, i.e. act as a last resort insurer/lender.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1285
Flying Hellfish is a Commie
long theymos post

I agree with a good amount of what is here. Always happy to see a long Theymos post as well. Starting with the money printing side of things, I've read a good amount of articles and such talking about how this isn't going to cause inflation beyond typical levels due to the fact that spending is HEAVILY depleted here. One of the things that would typically happen in a time like this, without any government intervention, would be deflation. But we don't live in a world anymore where government intervention is foreign -- the only REAL data point we can use in the Modern Era is the Obama Stimulus package and the Great Recession, which saw inflation peak around 3.5 percent even with an 800b+ stimulus package.

These two circumstances obviously aren't exactly the same as I do think there were some tax decreases in the Obama stimuls packages. See here for info on what exactly those were - https://www.thebalance.com/what-was-obama-s-stimulus-package-3305625

Couldn't agree more when you talk about businesses getting bailouts and expecting bailouts. That's something that was talked about after the bank bailouts, that banks were taking on increased risk b/c of the fact that they knew the government would bail them out. If you know you have a free pass, is it really your fault if you use it? I'm not going to talk about the fact that the government actually did profit from the bailouts, because they could've used this money more effectively -- lowering taxes for the middle class.

Very interesting tracker for the bailouts is going to be here, by ProPublica - https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/

Businesses that are in industries that are VERY susceptible to this sort of thing should be ready for this to happen. Plus the fact that these companies have been highly profitable for decades and have been taking this cash and rewarding shareholders with it. Money that they COULD'VE set aside to ensure that they were ready for a black swan event.

Even though we're having this great discussion here, politicians are still only going to care about the short term job losses b/c the voters care about the short term. When most Americans can't afford a $400 expense, politicians are going to focus on ensuring that they have a stable income, even if it's not the best choice. In a perfect world you'd be rewarded for being ready for a black swan, not being rewarded for doing the opposite. But we're not in that world I guess.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
I've read that Egypt uses simple coriander essential oil to control diabetes, because they are too poor to buy insulin.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 2156
Welcome to the SaltySpitoon, how Tough are ya?

Interesting you brought up insulin, as one of the main reasons it is so expensive is explicitly because of overbearing regulations designed to be a feeding trough for the big pharmaceutical giants.

https://www.healthline.com/diabetesmine/why-not-more-affordable-generic-insulin

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, our healthcare system is absolute garbage. Theres so much stupid legal red tape and profiteering at the expense of citizens. Something is absolutely wrong when you compare all of the countries in the world and see plenty with very comparable healthcare standards at 1/10th the cost where the government isn't footing the bill, its just between the patient and the hospital which charges a fair amount to compensate their staff and equipment. I have a friend who is a young veterinarian that ended up with a lifetime of medical debt for a 3 day visit for admittedly a fairly serious surgery, but on the other hand she had performed the same operation on horses for 1/20th the cost. While horses can't sue you for malpractice if something goes wrong, you still stand the risk of getting kicked in the head so that should count for something.

I have a fully functioning lab that has home built equipment on par with functionality on par with big pharmaceutical companies. I use X-Ray spectroscopy to verify crystalline spacing at the atomic level to verify that what I've synthesized is what it should be. Even still, I'm still not comfortable giving anything I make to humans as I can't be 100% certain about purity. Some legal red tape is there for a reason, and some of it is nonsense. No one seems to be willing to go case by case and evaluate what makes sense to stay on the books from a human safety standpoint, and what was the result of some lobbiest finding out a congressman had an affair and extorting them into getting something passed.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
We need government to drop regulations for any small person/business to make any products, and provide any services. If this were the case, small product producers would have to make quality, or people will go somewhere else.

The result would be that business could get back to normal.

Cool

I've been trying to make epinephrine and insulin in my back yard, and they've been telling me no  Cry

In addition, I got my nuclear reactor shut down years ago while I was still building it. DHS' concern was more that I was using a local river for cooling, even though it was a closed loop system! Damn government.

Interesting you brought up insulin, as one of the main reasons it is so expensive is explicitly because of overbearing regulations designed to be a feeding trough for the big pharmaceutical giants.

https://www.healthline.com/diabetesmine/why-not-more-affordable-generic-insulin
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 2156
Welcome to the SaltySpitoon, how Tough are ya?
We need government to drop regulations for any small person/business to make any products, and provide any services. If this were the case, small product producers would have to make quality, or people will go somewhere else.

The result would be that business could get back to normal.

Cool

I've been trying to make epinephrine and insulin in my back yard, and they've been telling me no  Cry

In addition, I got my nuclear reactor shut down years ago while I was still building it. DHS' concern was more that I was using a local river for cooling, even though it was a closed loop system! Damn government.

Congratulations! If you can do this as a small business, think of all the success millions of other small business people would have if government regs were gone!

Cool

I know, I could produce 14 trillion joules at a cost of 0.68 cents per Kilowatt Hour. Epipens are $800 last I checked, and I can make my own for under $10 + time (and whatever an autoinjector costs) making insulin wasn't actually that profitable but it was interesting.

The cost of doing it and not knowing what I was doing would be hundreds of millions of dollars at a minimum though, so I guess I kind of understand why there weren't thrilled about it.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
We need government to drop regulations for any small person/business to make any products, and provide any services. If this were the case, small product producers would have to make quality, or people will go somewhere else.

The result would be that business could get back to normal.

Cool

I've been trying to make epinephrine and insulin in my back yard, and they've been telling me no  Cry

In addition, I got my nuclear reactor shut down years ago while I was still building it. DHS' concern was more that I was using a local river for cooling, even though it was a closed loop system! Damn government.

Congratulations! If you can do this as a small business, think of all the success millions of other small business people would have if government regs were gone!

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 2156
Welcome to the SaltySpitoon, how Tough are ya?
We need government to drop regulations for any small person/business to make any products, and provide any services. If this were the case, small product producers would have to make quality, or people will go somewhere else.

The result would be that business could get back to normal.

Cool

I've been trying to make epinephrine and insulin in my back yard, and they've been telling me no  Cry

In addition, I got my nuclear reactor shut down years ago while I was still building it. DHS' concern was more that I was using a local river for cooling, even though it was a closed loop system! Damn government.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
We need government to drop regulations for any small person/business to make any products, and provide any services. If this were the case, small product producers would have to make quality, or people will go somewhere else.

The result would be that business could get back to normal.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 2156
Welcome to the SaltySpitoon, how Tough are ya?
Not that I think the stimulus plan is a great one, but I do think its possibly better than nothing. I'm not very pro socialism, but what I hate more than socialism is poorly done socialism. Thats what the US has now. Our public medical care is socialized to a degree already whether anyone likes it or not. The reason emergency room visits cost as much as they do is because they can't turn away people that inevitably will not be able to pay, so the extra cost is spread out to everyone else to make up for it. Well that and other issues with healthcare costs. People scream we don't want something socialized, when in reality we are already 95% there and that 5% that we don't commit to is just making it horribly inefficient and expensive.

My point wasn't actually about health care, but just something to consider is that the cost of not giving everyone something to buy food while they're out of work very well potentially could have a greater financial effect than the printer brrrring out 2 trillion dollars. We've survived a few quantitive easings, which again I wont say I'm too on board with, but human lives have a lot of value. And I dont mean the sappy, "everyone is special" sort, I mean that there is a calculable cost to the government for each person that gets sick. There is a calculable loss to GDP, tax collection, etc etc for each person that dies. You'd hope that there were some fancy economists that looked over what information they had at the moment and saw, ok if we do nothing this will likely cost us $3 trillion, but we can reduce that by printing 2 trillion now.

Even if it wasn't the optimal move, its probably reasonable to believe that the cost of inaction may be higher than the cost of action now. They can always say alright, we want our $1200 back 6 months down the line and burn it (not that that'll happen) but they can't bring people back to life.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
Do you check your bank every day to see if the stimulus money is here, yet?

Cool
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
This is slightly off-topic, however, I am concerned about the amount of UI benefits and how this will affect employers who need to stay open, and our country's ability to continue to produce and transport supplies and other necessities. When you are not working, you no longer have expenses such as gas (for driving to work), dry cleaning, eating out for lunch (if your employer does not pay for this), and other expenses related to working. It would probably be more appropriate to limit UI benefits to something closer to 80 or 85% of earnings. If the economic shutdown lasts long enough, eventually those that remain working will get fed up with effectively working for free.

I agree and it's actually worse than you might think.  Assuming I understand how it works (I might be wrong, haven't read the actual bill), if your unemployment claim is approved you'll receive whatever you'd normally receive from your state plus an additional $600/month.  It will also be very easy to get approved - 'I have a sore throat' is a perfectly acceptable reason to not work a couple weeks and if you don't have any paid sick leave, you qualify for unemployment.

In other words, if you're making close to minimum wage, you have the chance to earn more money by not going to work.

They also expanded it towards self employed/gig workers.  So if you're an uber driver, or anyone that isn't employed by someone else that can show they had income over the past 12-18 months, you can claim unemployment and generate income by keeping any other income off the books.

(Unrelated to the payment: I keep thinking that this would be a really bad time for some other black swan event, like an attack by Russia on a NATO member or something like that. It could happen, though.)
Yeah that's terrifying.  Right now America is more vulnerable than ever - could be a golden opportunity for any country that would benefit greatly from any American failure.

911 is looking like not that big of a deal right now.

Any natural catastrophe over the next few weeks would also be magnified by a lot. 



Trump Authorizes Defense Secretary Mark Esper to Order National Guard and Reservists to Active Duty - https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/03/27/trump-authorizes-defense-secretary-mark-esper-to-order-national-guard-and-reservists-to-active-duty/.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 2716
Merit: 2093
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
This is slightly off-topic, however, I am concerned about the amount of UI benefits and how this will affect employers who need to stay open, and our country's ability to continue to produce and transport supplies and other necessities. When you are not working, you no longer have expenses such as gas (for driving to work), dry cleaning, eating out for lunch (if your employer does not pay for this), and other expenses related to working. It would probably be more appropriate to limit UI benefits to something closer to 80 or 85% of earnings. If the economic shutdown lasts long enough, eventually those that remain working will get fed up with effectively working for free.

I agree and it's actually worse than you might think.  Assuming I understand how it works (I might be wrong, haven't read the actual bill), if your unemployment claim is approved you'll receive whatever you'd normally receive from your state plus an additional $600/month.  It will also be very easy to get approved - 'I have a sore throat' is a perfectly acceptable reason to not work a couple weeks and if you don't have any paid sick leave, you qualify for unemployment.

In other words, if you're making close to minimum wage, you have the chance to earn more money by not going to work.

They also expanded it towards self employed/gig workers.  So if you're an uber driver, or anyone that isn't employed by someone else that can show they had income over the past 12-18 months, you can claim unemployment and generate income by keeping any other income off the books.

(Unrelated to the payment: I keep thinking that this would be a really bad time for some other black swan event, like an attack by Russia on a NATO member or something like that. It could happen, though.)
Yeah that's terrifying.  Right now America is more vulnerable than ever - could be a golden opportunity for any country that would benefit greatly from any American failure.

911 is looking like not that big of a deal right now.

Any natural catastrophe over the next few weeks would also be magnified by a lot. 

sr. member
Activity: 854
Merit: 264
Crypto is not a religion but i like it
If someone in this thread believes that money can just be  printed on a printer that makes brrrr - then for him the payments are good and there is nothing wrong with them.
But in fact, we are waiting for the acceleration of inflation and later understanding that such payments are not so good from the point of view of the money supply economy lol
Vod
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 3010
Licking my boob since 1970
I asked because you are a weasel with no scruples and I wanted you to be faced with contradicting yourself or making a blatantly false statement to catch you up in your own weasel game.

Entrapment.  :/
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
What I said is true. I don't need to defend your interpretations of what I said weasel.

There is no interpretation that could make this true for 90% of the workforce:

People who just now lost their jobs will still owe taxes later on what they already earned.


Individuals and businesses operating without income tax would be a HUGE economic incentive for EVERYONE to keep working and create more jobs.

No weaseling will make the fact that this is a huge incentive for 100% of the income taxed earning population less true, regardless of already taxed income .



~

You hit some of the main points, the primary one being that this "free money" actually is just debt placed on all of us collectively, rewarding those who did not prepare, and punishing the productive elements of society for preparing. I disagree with your prognosis that this will have little effect though. This is how conditioning and Fabian Socialism works. It is all about incrementalism, I.E. boiling the frog slowly. This program is effectively conditioning the US population to accept these UBI type payments so they can be expanded in the future, and create a complete dependence on the government for food, healthcare, housing, protection, etc. In this way no one can ever afford to resist the government, because if you do you lose access to society almost completely.







Freedom and responsibility are indivisible.
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
Imagine that 95%+ of people on Earth were forced to stop working for years, but the government paid everyone's old income. What would happen? ~Nothing would be produced, so the world would become a zero-sum game. Prices for everything would approach infinity: due to storage, maybe there'd be enough to keep prices sort-of sane for a month or two (though they'd rise due to expected scarcity), but quickly there'd simply be nothing to buy at any practical price. If the government wanted to increase their payment to people in order to account for this, then they'd have to exponentially increase the payment, and very quickly there would either be hyperinflation or a bankrupt government. Moving money around does not create value.

What's happening now is still pretty far from that situation, since 50-85% of people still seem to be more-or-less working, and imports from more productive countries are also possible (especially since USD is the world reserve currency). Still, it's important to realize that government payments are not creating any value whatsoever, but are merely moving around now-more-limited resources. The virus and the response to it took a bunch of toothpaste out of the tube, and now the government is squeezing the tube in various ways. As with the extreme example, I would expect to see price inflation (perhaps to infinity; ie. shortages) in areas where production/supply have been stopped/curtailed, though in the short-term this may have been counteracted by a one-time cratering of demand due to shifted lifestyles.

So when the government gives everyone $1200, they're moving value around, not creating anything. An important and difficult question is where is that value coming from? The economy is complicated, and I'm not 100% certain, but AFAICT the main way the value will be transferred will be something like this:
 - It's not really coming from tax revenue, since taxes have not been increased and probably won't be increased due directly to this spending.
 - On the surface, it will be funded by issuing bonds, and the cash will come from the buyers of bonds. Buyers of bonds are mainly the Fed (ie. money creation), other central banks, other banks, pension funds, and other institutional investors.
 - But the interest payments on the bonds are long-term-unsustainable, and are almost certainly going to be paid for with money-printing long-term. Basically the government prints money, gives it mainly to rich people, borrows it back from those rich people a little later, and the cycle repeats. You get an endless cycle of people who already hold assets getting increasingly more assets via money-printing, while it will be increasingly difficult for anyone else to become rich in the future, since yields on future investments will be reduced, and the economy will slow down due to misallocation of resources, debt "crowding", etc.

I certainly don't support tax increases, but in some ways it'd be more fair if this sort of thing was actually funded through past or future taxes instead of the Fed monetizing the debt. MMT increases inequality.

The bailouts for companies (including small companies) and the Fed's efforts to reduce volatility across every area of the market are really bad. Businesses that can't survive should die, even in a black swan event. That's how capitalism weeds out bad businesses. Businesses should either structure themselves to be able to survive this sort of thing, or they should buy insurance. But since the government keeps bailing out companies, it creates moral hazard: companies think (correctly) that they'll get bailed out, so they increasingly don't prepare for disasters (by eg. having sane amounts of debt), they don't buy appropriate insurance, and they don't properly hedge their investments against black-swan volatility. In fact, some in the mortgage market lost a lot of money because they were hedging against interest rate increases, and the Fed's MBS purchases screwed them; maybe they've "learned their lesson", and will in the future just rely on the Fed to save them from volatility. All of this intervention causes mispricing of time (ie. interest rates) and risk, leading to the increasingly-widespread existence of companies which don't actually provide optimal value to the economy, and may in fact be net drains on the economy. It's a (long & slow) path toward economic collapse.

The stated justification for the business bailouts is to save jobs. If that's the goal, then they should just give everyone a UBI payment for 6-12 months. The bad businesses will fail, and the newly-unemployed-but-not-starving people will find something more productive to do, such as starting businesses that won't fail and are maybe more useful in the post-recession environment. If you want to stop people from losing their paycheck, just give them a paycheck: don't prop up garbage businesses to act as a middleman. It seems as though a lot of people view businesses as immovable machines which distribute money to the immovable proletariat class, when in reality things are and should be much more fluid.

An additional largely-unstated reason for the business bailouts is to keep the stock market from crashing even more. Members of Congress and their donors tend to have large net worths, almost all of which is in the stock market. A lot of Americans also have a lot of money in the stock market, and they will not be happy with their representatives if their retirement fund is cut in half. But bad businesses should fail, and if you're not prepared for this, then you shouldn't invest in them.

On principle, I don't support the individual relief (ie. the $1200 checks and expanded unemployment benefits), either: people should save for disasters on their own, and if they can't/won't, private charity should be the answer. But people have been trained to load up on debt and rely on the government to save them from disasters, so they don't generally have a lot of savings, and in these conditions, something like the individual relief was politically inevitable. Without it, a lot of people would be totally hosed. So I don't mind the individual relief too much, though I don't think that it'll have much effect aside from keeping (some) people afloat for a month or two, and the longer the government wants to keep people at home, the more they'll have to pay due to the inflation/production effects I mentioned at the beginning of this post. The economy is basically halted, so it won't really stimulate the economy. Even though the total spend is large, because it's so widespread, I suspect that the payment itself won't have many long-term positive or negative economic effects, though the lockdown/virus which prompted it is economically disastrous, of course. Short-term:
 - Since the individual relief is actually going directly into the real economy, unlike a lot of what the Fed does, maybe we'll see some inflation from it. Probably in food and other Walmart-type stuff.
 - Since the unemployment insurance is pretty generous, employment numbers (and therefore production / economic growth) will probably be somewhat depressed for as long as the boosted benefits last.

I think that Trump will take and get credit for the payment. Maybe people will call it the "Trump check" or something, even. It could be pretty helpful for his campaign.

(Unrelated to the payment: I keep thinking that this would be a really bad time for some other black swan event, like an attack by Russia on a NATO member or something like that. It could happen, though.)
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
What I said is true. I don't need to defend your interpretations of what I said weasel.

There is no interpretation that could make this true for 90% of the workforce:

People who just now lost their jobs will still owe taxes later on what they already earned.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
So people who already worked 3 months this year will not owe taxes on that income? Cool story.

You're the one making the claim so shouldn't you know that?

People who just now lost their jobs will still owe taxes later on what they already earned.

Please read up on income tax withholding instead of continuing to spread false information.

~90% of workers (non-self-employed / not filing 1040-ES) have already paid the tax and will not owe it "later".


I asked because you are a weasel with no scruples and I wanted you to be faced with contradicting yourself or making a blatantly false statement to catch you up in your own weasel game. Of course the weasel you are you just skip that part and pretend like it is a sign of ignorance and I don't know the answer.

What I said is true. I don't need to defend your interpretations of what I said weasel.


legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
I gotta wait 'til the 16th or even later? O drat. I want it now.

 Wink
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