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Topic: Seriously, though, how would a libertarian society address global warming? - page 18. (Read 30176 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Obviously you people don't have a clue what a Liberty Seeker(Libertarian) is.  You sound like a bunch of Government Trolls, since it's funny you never see the Trolls out posting about how would a Socialist, or Facist, or Communist Society address the Global Warming Hoax.  It's always about a Libertarian stance.  What a joke you people are, and so bloody transparent it's laughable.

A Libertarian is a responsible person.  To himself and those around him.  Why?  Because he believes in his own rights and the rights of others.

If Global Warming existed and wasn't a con job hoisted upon the World and propped up by Trolls around the Globe both off and online a Libertarian Society would accept responsibility on a national scale to ensure the safe conduct of its Inustrial Base.

Now, if you're done trolling on Libertarians and towing the Globalist line so Al Gore can make his billions on Carbon Credits while the rest of us pay world taxes to support the Global Government I'd like to get back to my online poker game...

Thanks.
A-fucking-men.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Obviously you people don't have a clue what a Liberty Seeker(Libertarian) is.  You sound like a bunch of Government Trolls, since it's funny you never see the Trolls out posting about how would a Socialist, or Facist, or Communist Society address the Global Warming Hoax.  It's always about a Libertarian stance.  What a joke you people are, and so bloody transparent it's laughable.

A Libertarian is a responsible person.  To himself and those around him.  Why?  Because he believes in his own rights and the rights of others.

If Global Warming existed and wasn't a con job hoisted upon the World and propped up by Trolls around the Globe both off and online a Libertarian Society would accept responsibility on a national scale to ensure the safe conduct of its Inustrial Base.

Now, if you're done trolling on Libertarians and towing the Globalist line so Al Gore can make his billions on Carbon Credits while the rest of us pay world taxes to support the Global Government I'd like to get back to my online poker game...

Thanks.

Actually, in a truely libertarian society, no one would give a shit about global warming, since the only person you should be looking out for is yourself, which includes saving money by purchasing the cheapest energy possible.

The solution would be for the libertarian feudal lords to build underground bunkers where they can live while the rest of the population dies, and then die themselves, alone.

Because we all know that global warming, if real, would resemble a nuclear war  Roll Eyes

Also, nice job ignoring my argument.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Actually, in a truely libertarian society, no one would give a shit about global warming, since the only person you should be looking out for is yourself, which includes saving money by purchasing the cheapest energy possible.

The solution would be for the libertarian feudal lords to build underground bunkers where they can live while the rest of the population dies, and then die themselves, alone.

Because we all know that global warming, if real, would resemble a nuclear war  Roll Eyes

Clearly.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
Actually, in a truely libertarian society, no one would give a shit about global warming, since the only person you should be looking out for is yourself, which includes saving money by purchasing the cheapest energy possible.

The solution would be for the libertarian feudal lords to build underground bunkers where they can live while the rest of the population dies, and then die themselves, alone.

Because we all know that global warming, if real, would resemble a nuclear war  Roll Eyes

Also, nice job ignoring my argument.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
I never hashed for this...
Actually, in a truely libertarian society, no one would give a shit about global warming, since the only person you should be looking out for is yourself, which includes saving money by purchasing the cheapest energy possible.

The solution would be for the libertarian feudal lords to build underground bunkers where they can live while the rest of the population dies, and then die themselves, alone.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
Actually, in a truely libertarian society, no one would give a shit about global warming, since the only person you should be looking out for is yourself, which includes saving money by purchasing the cheapest energy possible.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
I think it's important to separate the issue in two:

1) How would a Libertarian society handle the case where something people benefited from individually in sum caused massive harm to everyone -- a case where each person individual benefits from "defecting" but where everyone would benefit if they could all "cooperate".

2) Is global warming a problem of this type?

I suggest you try to either work on one issue or the other but not both at the same time. When talking about how a Libertarian society would handle warming, assuming that man-made releases of CO2 have a significant risk of causing a global cataclysm. When talking about the actual scientific issues with AGW, forget about politics.

The one point I keep trying to make is this -- regardless of how well or badly a Libertarian society would address global warming (or similar problems like pollution), democracies have done at best a mediocre job and, more typically, a terrible job. The only thing that seems to address these problems effectively is prosperity and technology.


+1
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
I think it's important to separate the issue in two:

1) How would a Libertarian society handle the case where something people benefited from individually in sum caused massive harm to everyone -- a case where each person individual benefits from "defecting" but where everyone would benefit if they could all "cooperate".

2) Is global warming a problem of this type?

I suggest you try to either work on one issue or the other but not both at the same time. When talking about how a Libertarian society would handle warming, assuming that man-made releases of CO2 have a significant risk of causing a global cataclysm. When talking about the actual scientific issues with AGW, forget about politics.

The one point I keep trying to make is this -- regardless of how well or badly a Libertarian society would address global warming (or similar problems like pollution), democracies have done at best a mediocre job and, more typically, a terrible job. The only thing that seems to address these problems effectively is prosperity and technology.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
There is far more evidence that this recent temperature increase is a result of solar cycles than human activity.

I presume by "more" you mean "none at all".

Solar irradiance does not correlate with the change in global temperatures.



That is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen in a long time.

http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-global-warming-alarmism-192334971.html

i do not see how that is related to your previous statement.  the magnitude of energy capture is less than models predict.  that does not support your assertion that solar cycles are a cause of anything and the fact remains that solar irradiance has fallen while meteorological measurements show temperatures have risen.

as for your link, how about we read what the actual scientist has to say rather than heartland?

http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/new-paper-on-the-misdiagnosis-of-surface-temperature-feedbacks-from-variations-in-earth%E2%80%99s-radiant-energy-balance-by-spencer-and-braswell-2011/

Quote
The previously unexplained differences between model-based forecasts of rapid global warming and meteorological data showing a slower rate of warming have been the source of often contentious debate and controversy for more than two decades.

in other words - not warming as fast as models predict, but still warming at an unprecedented rate.

I believe what you are trying to say is "Golly gee! Temperatures have been rising pretty fast in the past twenty years or so, compared to the past hundred years in which we have been capable of measuring global temperatures".

Yes, there are ice core measurements, etc but those generally point to mixed conclusions that are somewhat inconvenient for proponents of anthropogenic global warming (for example, it was far warmer during the Holocene Maximum in most of the world, and even the Medieval Warm Period featured warmer climate in most of Europe). "But wait!" you say, "Temperature increases of the time were not constant throughout the world so they don't count!", to which I reply "True, but such increases don't apply now, either. For example, I recall it being noted a while back that large portions of the USA aren't warming at all, and are, in fact, beginning to cool down significantly. This indicates that if humans are affecting the climate at all with emissions, the effects are marginal at best."

True, it might not be solar emissions causing an increase in temperature (though again, these increases are definitely not worldwide at this point, so it isn't even honest to claim that "the earth is warming" at all), but then we aren't exactly far ahead in terms of our ability to understand the climate in a massive way. Personally, I would imagine that what warming there is is being caused by water vapor and ocean currents, which would certainly make some sense. But then, we don't know enough to be able to make strong, accurate predictions either way. There was once a time where the most groundbreaking, revolutionary and accurate belief was that the earth was actually round (true) and that the sun rotated around it (false). This wasn't because the earth was really flat (which was the alternative of the time), but because ancient astronomers were effectively incapable of figuring it out with the instruments at hand. Likewise, our climate models are crude and far off target with predictions. It is a bit silly to claim that we have suddenly understood the mysteries of the climate in their entirety when we obviously haven't.

This is still a pointless argument, though. Assuming there is no global warming, we have nothing to worry about. Assuming there is (and assuming that nothing natural counterbalances the excess of CO2, like how some consider that plants may thrive from the CO2 and absorb more, producing more oxygen and growing faster), we have a very long time before most of the negative effects become prominent (don't give me the Al Gore "flooding Florida" garbage, the most alarmist of AGW supporting scientists predict far milder effects in the worse case scenario over a far longer period of time) by which time we will probably have a more efficient energy source due to a decrease in supply and increase in demand of fuel. However, assuming you are right (and libertarianism is flexible enough to handle the situation even in the worst case scenario), here is a list of things things a libertarian society would do (most of which even apply to lukewarm, beltway libertarians, though I will mention if they don't):

-No more energy subsidies. No truly libertarian society would subsidize oil companies (though a somewhat libertarian society might, but we are talking about one willing to at least go to minarchy along the lines of a Ron-Paul-Sets-All-The-Rules world if not farther), and thus oil would lose a lot of its competitiveness in the market. This would result in far less incentive to use oil, resulting in other energy sources becoming commercially viable without subsidies. Mind, alternative energy would lose subsidies too, but frankly if it can't stand without subsidies it is definitely a poor alternative (the prime example of this is the hybrid car, which requires more energy to make its engine than it saves through efficiency). Ultimately, improvements in technology would result in a superior, probably cleaner form of energy.

-Without government controlled energy grids, a lot of burning electricity plants would be far too inefficient to make a profit (especially without subsidies), while some alternative energy sources might become far more popular due to increased utility (for example, wind turbines and solar panels would be far more prevalent, though their inefficiencies would have to be dealt with to be made viable outside of a handful of areas).

-The road system would probably stop receiving subsidies. Roads would still be present, but they would likely be owned by either landowners (the roads would be auctioned off to those homesteading the land nearby or abandoned altogether depending on the circumstances) or by road companies. The road owners wouldn't want to have to use their own money to pay for "frequent drivers", and thus would charge a fee for driving on them. Competition would keep costs below what they are now (paid in taxes), but those who drove everywhere for no good reason would begin to feel the cost hurting their pocketbook. Meanwhile, those who only drove when necessary would note that the loss of many taxes otherwise used to pay for infrastructure (varies depending on the country, but in my own it is the gas tax) would result in them actually benefiting from their decision, which coincidentally is the "environmentally friendly" one as well. Alternative modes of transportation would become far more viable without subsidized roads, too.

-A minor one, but this would still probably have an effect. The military, no longer needing to go on foreign adventures, would be greatly downsized (if not privatized altogether). They would cease to consume as many resources as when they are maintaining over a hundred bases across the world and fighting many wars, and thus would greatly decrease their emissions.
hero member
Activity: 590
Merit: 500
There is far more evidence that this recent temperature increase is a result of solar cycles than human activity.

I presume by "more" you mean "none at all".

Solar irradiance does not correlate with the change in global temperatures.



That is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen in a long time.

http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-global-warming-alarmism-192334971.html

i do not see how that is related to your previous statement.  the magnitude of energy capture is less than models predict.  that does not support your assertion that solar cycles are a cause of anything and the fact remains that solar irradiance has fallen while meteorological measurements show temperatures have risen.

as for your link, how about we read what the actual scientist has to say rather than heartland?

http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/new-paper-on-the-misdiagnosis-of-surface-temperature-feedbacks-from-variations-in-earth%E2%80%99s-radiant-energy-balance-by-spencer-and-braswell-2011/

Quote
The previously unexplained differences between model-based forecasts of rapid global warming and meteorological data showing a slower rate of warming have been the source of often contentious debate and controversy for more than two decades.

in other words - not warming as fast as models predict, but still warming at an unprecedented rate.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
There is far more evidence that this recent temperature increase is a result of solar cycles than human activity.

I presume by "more" you mean "none at all".

Solar irradiance does not correlate with the change in global temperatures.



That is one of the most ignorant statements I have seen in a long time.

http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-data-blow-gaping-hold-global-warming-alarmism-192334971.html
hero member
Activity: 590
Merit: 500
There is far more evidence that this recent temperature increase is a result of solar cycles than human activity.

I presume by "more" you mean "none at all".

Solar irradiance does not correlate with the change in global temperatures.

legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Yes, the globe is heating, but will it have significant impact to our lives? That I find debatable at best. There is far more evidence that this recent temperature increase is a result of solar cycles than human activity. Speaking of evidence, I am still waiting on some documentation, but I fully expect you to provide none and proceed with endlessly deconstructing statements as you have done so far. You are claiming there needs to be a change after all, therefore the burden of proof is on YOU regardless of how much consensus you claim there is.

Interesting related article: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/green-agenda-has-parallels-with-excesses-of-communism/story-e6frfhqf-1226103023674
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Sorry, I am not going to waste time discussing endless peripheral issues which could be symptoms of any number of causes. Lets get right to the dependent factor of all of these side topics. Does human production of carbon-dioxide significantly raise global temperature? All of your assumptions rest on this one answer.  You say yes, I say no. So far I have seen others here provide you with references - but I haven't yet once seen you provide documentation. It is easy to sit on the side and demand others produce evidence, then deconstruct it endlessly. Why don't you declare some of this evidence you claim you have?

Based on your remark above, can we assume for starters that you acknowledge global warming, but are hesitant to attribute it to humanity?
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Sorry, I am not going to waste time discussing endless peripheral issues which could be symptoms of any number of causes. Lets get right to the dependent factor of all of these side topics. Does human production of carbon-dioxide significantly raise global temperature? All of your assumptions rest on this one answer.  You say yes, I say no. So far I have seen others here provide you with references - but I haven't yet once seen you provide documentation. It is easy to sit on the side and demand others produce evidence, then deconstruct it endlessly. Why don't you declare some of this evidence you claim you have?
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I took the liberty of putting your logical fallacies in bold so others can learn from your assumptions. So far you have asked for evidence, the when provided with a reputable source, denied it existed, made sweeping generalizations & assumptions about me personally, as well as the scientific community, and attacked me personally rather than the evidence produced. It doesn't take a brilliant mind to see you are presenting emotional motivation as evidence rather than facts.

Oh, okay.

Let's take things one point at a time, then. What is your take on the theory of melting ice and rising sea levels?
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
I wasn't aware that facts become less valid if they aren't brand new news. I also don't know if I would call The new York Times a "conspiracy rag". Your "current consensus" is an illusion parroted all over the media without factual basis. I mean my god man, you are quoting Al Gore's talking points word for word. Ever try thinking for yourself?

I don't really care that much for Al Gore, nor do I ever seek him out to listen to or read. Tell me, do you ever immerse yourself into the scientific community, it's journals, etc.? Or do you just selectively seek your news from media which is largely supported by those who support the Republican party, such as Fox news?

Your 'facts' which you claim do not become less valid, were never facts, but big corporations spreading misinformation and capitalizing on some missteps made by a fraction of scientists, who felt compelled to polish the numbers of some studies, because of their frustration in being up against big corporate money.

You have two choices: follow the scientific community, and what they're saying, or big money, which is obviously motivated by the concept of making money.

Take your blinders off, and try and be critical of your idea about global warming, because only about 10 percent in the scientific community actually interpret the data somewhat in line with how you do. Notably, a large percentage of scientists who are petroleum geologists. Hmm, imagine that.

It's amazing how much misinformation can be spread by corporations who have a huge amount of money at stake. However, it doesn't take a brilliant mind to realize that.

I think some people just have a difficult time weeding out the garbage from legitimate material. It helps if you take an active interest in the subject, rather than following your nose in response to seeking out questionable material that dovetails with your political agenda. I wouldn't be surprised if you're one of those who fell for the argument that melting ice won't cause sea levels to rise.

I took the liberty of putting your logical fallacies in bold so others can learn from your assumptions. So far you have asked for evidence, the when provided with a reputable source, denied it existed, made sweeping generalizations & assumptions about me personally, as well as the scientific community, and attacked me personally rather than the evidence produced. It doesn't take a brilliant mind to see you are presenting emotional motivation as evidence rather than facts.

Interesting related article: http://www.truthwinds.com/siterun_data/environment/weather_and_climate/news.php?q=1311700951
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I wasn't aware that facts become less valid if they aren't brand new news. I also don't know if I would call The new York Times a "conspiracy rag". Your "current consensus" is an illusion parroted all over the media without factual basis. I mean my god man, you are quoting Al Gore's talking points word for word. Ever try thinking for yourself?

I don't really care that much for Al Gore, nor do I ever seek him out to listen to or read. Tell me, do you ever immerse yourself into the scientific community, it's journals, etc.? Or do you just selectively seek your news from media which is largely supported by those who support the Republican party, such as Fox news?

Your 'facts' which you claim do not become less valid, were never facts, but big corporations spreading misinformation and capitalizing on some missteps made by a fraction of scientists, who felt compelled to polish the numbers of some studies, because of their frustration in being up against big corporate money.

You have two choices: follow the scientific community, and what they're saying, or big money, which is obviously motivated by the concept of making money.

Take your blinders off, and try and be critical of your idea about global warming, because only about 10 percent in the scientific community actually interpret the data somewhat in line with how you do. Notably, a large percentage of scientists who are petroleum geologists. Hmm, imagine that.

It's amazing how much misinformation can be spread by corporations who have a huge amount of money at stake. However, it doesn't take a brilliant mind to realize that.

I think some people just have a difficult time weeding out the garbage from legitimate material. It helps if you take an active interest in the subject, rather than following your nose in response to seeking out questionable material that dovetails with your political agenda. I wouldn't be surprised if you're one of those who fell for the argument that melting ice won't cause sea levels to rise.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
I wonder though, how much of the information presented there is information that was shown to be falsified in Climategate.
Climategate is old news. Seriously. For the scientific community, it's business as usual, which means that research continues as it has.

If you want to post recent material that isn't from a conspiracy rag that clearly shows that the current consensus on Global Warming is highly questionable, then please do so.

I wasn't aware that facts become less valid if they aren't brand new news. I also don't know if I would call The new York Times a "conspiracy rag". Your "current consensus" is an illusion parroted all over the media without factual basis. I mean my god man, you are quoting Al Gore's talking points word for word. Ever try thinking for yourself?
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
At the turn of the century, the US had thousands of telephone companies...

You're missing the point. Those thousands of telephone companies were not in competition with each other. They were regional.

There is a reason that the government allows one utility to have a monopoly. It's because of economies of scale. It is more cost effective to have one set of lines (gas, water, telephone, cable, power, sewer) then to have multiple. Someone has to invest in that infrastructure. Obviously, you don't believe it should be the government, which is fine. So, some business does it. Now, to prevent them from having power over you, there needs to be some type of regulation.

Yes they were. Most of those telephone companies were regional, but "most" of 4,000 leaves quite a bit of competition. Furthermore, most of those regional telephone lines were branching out when the Federal government took them over (AT&T actively encouraged the government to do so, and if they didn't have any competition they obviously wouldn't bother).

Also, around the same time there was plenty of competition among gas, power, etc companies as well. Baltimore had many such companies, it was only in 1893 when the gas and energy companies were monopolized around a single large competitor that had been lagging behind and used government influence to grant itself a charter. A gas or energy company of the time having power over you (at least in the long term) would have been a laughable prospect. Your argument has no clothes.
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