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Topic: Seriously, though, how would a libertarian society address global warming? - page 19. (Read 30065 times)

newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
At the turn of the century, the US had thousands of telephone companies...

You're missing the point. Those thousands of telephone companies were not in competition with each other. They were regional.

There is a reason that the government allows one utility to have a monopoly. It's because of economies of scale. It is more cost effective to have one set of lines (gas, water, telephone, cable, power, sewer) then to have multiple. Someone has to invest in that infrastructure. Obviously, you don't believe it should be the government, which is fine. So, some business does it. Now, to prevent them from having power over you, there needs to be some type of regulation.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
In Denmark you see this in action in the telecommunications industry. A new company is started, is more adaptive to consumer needs, is more efficient, takes away business from the big players, and eventually sells to one of the big players for a lot of money because the big players are losing a lot of revenue. New entrepreneurs notice an opportunity and then does the same.
What would happen if all the big players said to every newcomer "screw you, we're not letting you connect to our network at all, good luck selling your service if your customers can't actually talk to anyone with it"? The newcomer wouldn't last long. This happened in the US to a certain extent, by the way, and is why there are telecom monopolies there.

Fortunately, it appears the telecom industry in Denmark is quite heavily regulated.

They would lay down their own lines in a localized area and expand from there.

The US has telecom monopolies because the US government literally gave AT&T a monopoly and only removed it recently (relatively recently, anyway). Also, various regulations regarding the last kilometre, starting a telecom company, etc.

At the turn of the century, the US had thousands of telephone companies, and AT&T only had 51% market share despite having started with practically 100%. There was plenty of competition, and remember that this was back when they had just been invented. Then the US government took over all of the privately run telephone lines and gave them to AT&T.

There was also competition among  electric companies, despite electricity generation being an entirely new industry.

There is no such thing as a natural monopoly.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
I wonder though, how much of the information presented there is information that was shown to be falsified in Climategate.
Climategate is old news. Seriously. For the scientific community, it's business as usual, which means that research continues as it has.

If you want to post recent material that isn't from a conspiracy rag that clearly shows that the current consensus on Global Warming is highly questionable, then please do so.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Ascent.  Those links have nothing directly to do with my previous post to yours, so I can only assume you meant to post it as information.  Please provide a link to the factual data those links present to be true.  I read all 3 and no link is present in any of the articles.

I wonder though, how much of the information presented there is information that was shown to be falsified in Climategate.

What's Climategate?

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Isp&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=X&ei=0YIUTumLNYi3sQKIifnUDw&ved=0CCAQBSgA&q=climategate&spell=1&biw=1429&bih=972

full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
In Denmark you see this in action in the telecommunications industry. A new company is started, is more adaptive to consumer needs, is more efficient, takes away business from the big players, and eventually sells to one of the big players for a lot of money because the big players are losing a lot of revenue. New entrepreneurs notice an opportunity and then does the same.
What would happen if all the big players said to every newcomer "screw you, we're not letting you connect to our network at all, good luck selling your service if your customers can't actually talk to anyone with it"? The newcomer wouldn't last long. This happened in the US to a certain extent, by the way, and is why there are telecom monopolies there.

Fortunately, it appears the telecom industry in Denmark is quite heavily regulated.

That isn't the only industry in which this is an issue.

How about roads and rails?  How would one go about NOT having a monopoly on roads and rails?  Is there supposed to be ten redundant railroad tracks next to each other, one for each rail company?  Are we going to build redundant road systems for each privately own road company?

How about sewage and water?   Do we need fifteen redundant water lines running through every street for each water company?  Are we going to multiple sewer lines, multiple catch basins, etc. for each sewage company?


This would be such a laughably ridiculous, totally impractal, and wasted resource world.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 564
In Denmark you see this in action in the telecommunications industry. A new company is started, is more adaptive to consumer needs, is more efficient, takes away business from the big players, and eventually sells to one of the big players for a lot of money because the big players are losing a lot of revenue. New entrepreneurs notice an opportunity and then does the same.
What would happen if all the big players said to every newcomer "screw you, we're not letting you connect to our network at all, good luck selling your service if your customers can't actually talk to anyone with it"? The newcomer wouldn't last long. This happened in the US to a certain extent, by the way, and is why there are telecom monopolies there.

Fortunately, it appears the telecom industry in Denmark is quite heavily regulated.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
By the way, how do you propose to enforce that regulation?

Well, at first it'll just be a nicely worded letter. Then the letters will get nastier. Eventually, some people in blue costumes will come kidnap you or kill you if you defend yourself. It'll all be your fault though, for not listening to your betters.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Another example of how Global Warming enthusiasts will say anything to back up what they want everyone to believe in the name of Carbon Taxes.

Asia pollution blamed for halt in warming: study


http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/04/us-climate-sulphur-idUSTRE7634IQ20110704
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
I'm not sure how you got from my statement to congruence with those beliefs, then.

I suggested that you use your resources to fund a project to improve the ways things are done, in the hope that you will make money.

Never mentioned regulation. By the way, how do you propose to enforce that regulation?
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Hey, as long as you're not knocking heads to get your way, I'm OK with it. Hell, if you run an ad campaign that convinces people to use less efficient methods because they value the Environment. Just don't force anyone to do anything.

These are my beliefs:

  • The ecosystem is an asset, in many ways.
  • Picking the low hanging fruit in excess disrupts the ecosystem in irreversible ways.
  • It is human nature to pick the low hanging fruit, thus education is necessary, and regulation.
  • By imposing stringent regulation, there is a rush to develop efficient alternatives to living off of the low hanging fruit.
  • There is a lot of money and power who have short term goals, and would prefer to pick the low hanging fruit. These are self motivated individuals and entities, and they will prey upon the general ignorance of the masses by creating massive campaigns to lead others to believe that preservation of the world's ecosystems are not a priority. They further have the advantage by arguing that regulations will cause higher prices. It is easy to buy into this, but in the end it is exploitation, both of the public, and the ecosystems.

Note to point number one: it may be reversible over the course of hundreds of thousands of years, but in the shorter term, which is the world we live in, it is essentially irreversible.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Here's a third: You make a way to do something without damaging the environment, that is as or more efficient than one that does, and make a whole load of money in the process.

I agree. So you've come around completely to my view, which is that of ecological economics, as put forth by Herman Daly?

Hey, as long as you're not knocking heads to get your way, I'm OK with it. Hell, if you run an ad campaign that convinces people to use less efficient methods because they value the Environment. Just don't force anyone to do anything.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Here's a third: You make a way to do something without damaging the environment, that is as or more efficient than one that does, and make a whole load of money in the process.

I agree. So you've come around completely to my view, which is that of ecological economics, as put forth by Herman Daly?
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
Even the people who started this Global Warming farce to make money of Carbon Credits have changed the term to Climate Change now because of being so embarrassed by the facts and being outed as fools and liars.

I doubt scientists had carbon credits reflecting in their eyes in the 1960's when they started actively studying global warming. And the concept goes back even further - Joseph Fourier came up with it in 1824.

In the 1980's global warming was already accepted more or less as a fact, but in general it was thought there would still be plenty of time.

The "sceptic" camp has only been vocal for the past ten years, really, though they slowly started to appear in the 1990's, right around the time it started to look like there would be strong world-wide will to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This would hurt profits from oil and coal badly, so it's no surprise that practically the whole climate sceptic camp is funded by them:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/28/climate-change-sceptic-willie-soon
http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2011/04/900-papers-supporting-climate-scepticism-exxon-links

Whoever brings up current-day politics into the climate change "debate" doesn't know what he's talking about.

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Neither scenario one or two stand out as desirable solutions, so I can't see how you're winning your case by proposing them. As for the consequence, it all sounds good, but how do we in the here and now benefit from it?

No, neither scenario is particularly pleasant. Here's a third: You make a way to do something without damaging the environment, that is as or more efficient than one that does, and make a whole load of money in the process.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Humans make planet unfit for Human life, Human life either moves out, or dies off, Planet returns to equilibrium. Long term effect to planet: nil.

So to be clear then, you're outlining two scenarios and one consequence.

Scenario 1. We die.

Scenario 2. We have to have the tech to go live off the planet, and find satisfaction in that.

Consequence: The Earth heals, but after we're gone.

Neither scenario one or two stand out as desirable solutions, so I can't see how you're winning your case by proposing them. As for the consequence, it all sounds good, but how do we in the here and now benefit from it?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Humans make planet unfit for Human life, Human life either moves out, or dies off, Planet returns to equilibrium. Long term effect to planet: nil.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Which is functionally nil, long term.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I'm certain though that is not the effect one species can have on the environment though, as you and I both know that the human species has had catastrophic effects on the world's ecosystem. We've gone over this.

So what is functionally nil, long term?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote
The planet has been through worse things than humans since its creation.

Yes, it has. Giant asteroid impacts, of which there have been a few. Totally irrelevant within the context of discussing the effects one species, society or civilization has upon the world's ecosystem.

Which is functionally nil, long term.
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