Should BFL get a scammer tag? - page 2.

creativex

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Quote

Honest Abe, we're scheduling shipments for October of 2012.

I expect them to not play word games with my hard earned money and therefore labor. Anybody reading this is going to believe this means they're shipping in October, but that's NOT what it means. It's like an official statement from Bill Clinton. Examine Josh's statements more closely and you will find this is a recurring theme. The man says NOTHING without a whole bunch of weasel clauses.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: Syke on December 05, 2012, 02:26:10 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on December 05, 2012, 12:21:43 PM

Their delivery timeline is, and always has been, somewhere between late October and January 1st.

Let's look at their actual statements, not your opinions:

Quote

So will the BitForce SC product line REALLY come out in October? This is a fair question. Let's review our track record. If you're not aware, our initial product, the BitForce Single had a slow delivery cycle. This was initially due to a last minute design change before initial product release. When we did release it, we weren't quite prepared for the explosive success we had. After several rounds of scaling, single delivery is in sufficient volume to catch up quickly. The Mini Rig product release has followed it's development and release timeline pretty well. Initial deliveries aren't far from estimates and the speed of production is on pace to ensure most customers will get their Mini Rigs ahead of schedule. The SC product line has been under development for quite some time and is not the result of an expedited development process. Although there are always issues during development, our team is highly experienced in exactly this field and we're currently ahead of our original timeline. Honest Abe, we're scheduling shipments for October of 2012.

They gave every impression that they'd really really be shipping in October. October came and went. November came and went. December is going to come and go, and you'll keep making excuses for them. Get ready for the yearly BFL Chinese New Year excuse for more delays.

They certainly were planning to ship out in October. So? Unforeseen delays happened. What do you expect them to do?

Syke

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Quote from: SgtSpike on December 05, 2012, 12:21:43 PM

Their delivery timeline is, and always has been, somewhere between late October and January 1st.

Let's look at their actual statements, not your opinions:

Quote

So will the BitForce SC product line REALLY come out in October? This is a fair question. Let's review our track record. If you're not aware, our initial product, the BitForce Single had a slow delivery cycle. This was initially due to a last minute design change before initial product release. When we did release it, we weren't quite prepared for the explosive success we had. After several rounds of scaling, single delivery is in sufficient volume to catch up quickly. The Mini Rig product release has followed it's development and release timeline pretty well. Initial deliveries aren't far from estimates and the speed of production is on pace to ensure most customers will get their Mini Rigs ahead of schedule. The SC product line has been under development for quite some time and is not the result of an expedited development process. Although there are always issues during development, our team is highly experienced in exactly this field and we're currently ahead of our original timeline. Honest Abe, we're scheduling shipments for October of 2012.

They gave every impression that they'd really really be shipping in October. October came and went. November came and went. December is going to come and go, and you'll keep making excuses for them. Get ready for the yearly BFL Chinese New Year excuse for more delays.

creativex

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Merit: 250

Yeah I got it. The October delivery thing was just to draw the pre-orders away from competitors.

It's December 5, 2012 and BFL is hoping to receive respun chips next week. Does anyone seriously believe this company is going to ship out anything but more BS by January 1, 2013?

SgtSpike

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Quote from: makomk on November 30, 2012, 05:34:11 PM

Quote from: Maged on November 29, 2012, 12:23:45 AM

Anyone who has been waiting more than 30 days after they sent their payment is entitled to a refund under US law. So, they sure as hell better be honoring refund requests.

From the information I've seen, the 30 days time limit only applies where no specific delivery timeline was specified. Since BFL did state an expected delivery time of October, as soon as they missed that deadline they were required to contact everyone who'd ordered from them and tell them that their order wouldn't arrive on time and they'd get a full refund. (Actually, legally I think they're meant to automatically refund anyone who hasn't explicitly consented to the delay 30 days after the original delivery deadline, but that's probably not workable.) Note that the FTC guidance I read explicitly stated it was the earliest delivery estimate that mattered, so if you quote an estimate of October and then add a bit elsewhere in the small print that you won't refund before January, the fine print's not going to save you.

Their delivery timeline is, and always has been, somewhere between late October and January 1st.

mem

hero member

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Merit: 501

Herp Derp PTY LTD

Quote from: tacotime on November 21, 2012, 01:50:13 PM

Come on guys... if this was ANYONE else except for BFL they would have had scammer tags already! The community has given them hundreds of thousands of their dollars, waited month upon month, and has not seen a word of honest discourse from them about the state of their products.

If you're waiting on something, why not tell us? Why not tell us what it is? Why not at least provide process details for your ASIC like Avalon? Ridiculous.

BFL and Pirate, bitcointalk admins let pirates ponzi play out completely.
Shills abound, several of pirates fools/shills overlap with BFL's investors/shills heavily so it comes as no surprise.

No scammers tags are only for little fish on bitcointalk, big fish are welcome to bribe and buy their way out of any situation they can, if they cant THEN they get the scammers tag.

Zeek_W

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Definately should get a scammer tag. Josh should also get a Douche tag Tongue

creativex

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Activity: 434

Merit: 250

No sweat...the October shipping schedule was "fuzzy" and the 5th week of November shipping schedule was "hairy" so you should just fall back to the ~~early~~ late January shipping schedule with regard to legal action against this ethical, but extremely unlucky company.

makomk

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Quote from: Maged on November 29, 2012, 12:23:45 AM

Anyone who has been waiting more than 30 days after they sent their payment is entitled to a refund under US law. So, they sure as hell better be honoring refund requests.

From the information I've seen, the 30 days time limit only applies where no specific delivery timeline was specified. Since BFL did state an expected delivery time of October, as soon as they missed that deadline they were required to contact everyone who'd ordered from them and tell them that their order wouldn't arrive on time and they'd get a full refund. (Actually, legally I think they're meant to automatically refund anyone who hasn't explicitly consented to the delay 30 days after the original delivery deadline, but that's probably not workable.) Note that the FTC guidance I read explicitly stated it was the earliest delivery estimate that mattered, so if you quote an estimate of October and then add a bit elsewhere in the small print that you won't refund before January, the fine print's not going to save you.

AndrewBUD

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Quote from: creativex on November 29, 2012, 03:40:52 PM

Doubt they'll make that either. They said this won't be like their botched FPGA paper launch, but it's exactly the same. They run the same playbook again and again. It's painfully obvious why they've been so secretive and why their delays are always just a couple more weeks...just a couple more weeks. Rinse...repeat.

We'll be talking about this exact same thing in January.

creativex

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Activity: 434

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Doubt they'll make that either. They said this won't be like their botched FPGA paper launch, but it's exactly the same. They run the same playbook again and again. It's painfully obvious why they've been so secretive and why their delays are always just a couple more weeks...just a couple more weeks. Rinse...repeat.

SgtSpike

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Quote from: creativex on November 22, 2012, 06:30:33 PM

Pretty sure they're doing refunds despite the shady notification that pre-order funds are non-refundable. I've also seen posts from BFL reps suggesting a conditional refund policy. Something like, "we'll honor refunds if we don't ship by 1/31/2013" or some such.

All that said, I think they've been completely dishonest about this entire thing. They NEVER should have opened their pre-orders so early in the year, and they definitely never should have promised a date they couldn't deliver. People committed funds months ago based on those promises, and they have a right to expect those promises to be honored. The typical BFLites will dismissively say "well anyone that accepted their release date doesn't know BFL", but that doesn't wash.

Yes BFL deserves a scammer tag. Repeatedly lying when money has changed hands is scamming, period. Even if they do eventually ship, BFL customers will have been cheated of their money from the time they ordered to the time they receive products, during which time the products they bought will have dropped in value substantially due to greatly increased competition.

They never lied. They said that they expect shipments to be made late October, but no guaranteed shipments until January 1st. Then they changed it to expecting shipments early November, then early December. Always, these were NOT guaranteed ship dates. The only guaranteed date is January 1st.

Maged

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Anyone who has been waiting more than 30 days after they sent their payment is entitled to a refund under US law. So, they sure as hell better be honoring refund requests.

Unacceptable

legendary

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I think they either don't know how to update thier webpage or just don't WANT to Tongue

Wow

squeept dosen't have a BFL "moniker" & knows as much about BFL as I Shocked

creativex

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Inaba would run against him and likely outspend and out lie him. Political fail.

The fact that people have gotten refunds when requested...a good thing, but it still doesn't explain the multiple conflicting policies on this subject. This stuff is a fixture with BFL. They can't seem to ever get on the same page.

squeept

full member

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Every single person that has actually asked for a refund has received it.

And for the millionth time, the "end of January delivery" quote is if you ordered now. Way to copy and paste only what you felt like instead of the actual quote and context. Get a job in politics.

creativex

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Pretty sure they're doing refunds despite the shady notification that pre-order funds are non-refundable. I've also seen posts from BFL reps suggesting a conditional refund policy. Something like, "we'll honor refunds if we don't ship by 1/31/2013" or some such.

All that said, I think they've been completely dishonest about this entire thing. They NEVER should have opened their pre-orders so early in the year, and they definitely never should have promised a date they couldn't deliver. People committed funds months ago based on those promises, and they have a right to expect those promises to be honored. The typical BFLites will dismissively say "well anyone that accepted their release date doesn't know BFL", but that doesn't wash.

Yes BFL deserves a scammer tag. Repeatedly lying when money has changed hands is scamming, period. Even if they do eventually ship, BFL customers will have been cheated of their money from the time they ordered to the time they receive products, during which time the products they bought will have dropped in value substantially due to greatly increased competition.

SAC

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Quote from: Kuusou on November 22, 2012, 02:52:41 PM

This is a project technology guys. It's custom made. This is not them slapping together some GPU/FPGA parts and selling them as a package. It's an entire project. The only thing I would begrudge them for is not giving a more realistic shipping or completion date.

Even with FPGA units they had horrible shipping delays, still do for all I know, so it is not like people should have expected anything different with ASICs it seems to be SOP with this company.

Unacceptable

legendary

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Merit: 1001

Quote from: AndrewBUD on November 22, 2012, 08:53:09 AM

I doubt they'll even do a refund...

If you ask for one,they will give it you.Several folks have asked & recieved them on the BFL forums recently.

Kuusou

newbie

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Merit: 0

I agree with having an ASICs or BFL forum for these posts.

I also agree with the notion that it would spread pretty damn fast if they didn't issue a refund. People would start pulling out and issue charge backs and all of that. I know I would.

That being said I think people should relax. Honestly. Of course this company gave a date that was far more exciting than the final shipping date... That always happens, even with much larger, much more trusted companies. If you really don't want to wait then cancel your order and let us know how that goes.

This is a project technology guys. It's custom made. This is not them slapping together some GPU/FPGA parts and selling them as a package. It's an entire project. The only thing I would begrudge them for is not giving a more realistic shipping or completion date. But I hold that against so many companies, especially gaming companies.

Just... relax... If you didn't have the money to waste then you shouldn't have paid for some new fangled technology that only has one single purpose and had a release date months down the line...

Topic: Should BFL get a scammer tag? - page 2. (Read 6727 times)