Topic: Should BTC amounts greater than 10.000E be declared when leaving the country? (Read 519 times)

I'm sorry @GazetaBitcoin  you were right and I was wrong. and personally, I have never had 10.000 E and not relate to me. I hope you find the solution and Good Luck with your trip 

I also share this thought. In my opinion, being caught with an undeclared wallet (containing more than 10.000E in BTC) hidden on the storage of a drone / action camera / music player / portable speaker seems way more suspicious than simply having the wallet on your phone. If custom officers are targeted for amounts greater than 10.000E there may be nothing to do; yet hiding the wallet in such unusual place may trigger them to believe the coins may be part of an illegal scheme or who knows...

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I would certainly never use a centralized exchange. And you said a part of the risks associated with them -- but there are many other risks presented by such exchanges:

- first of all, the rule "not your keys not your coins" is more than real: a Court decision from 2020 practically says that
- centralized exchanges may be hacked and you lose your money
- centralized exchanges may seize your account at any time and you lose your money
- centralized exchanges may also lose your personal information due to hackers and this puts your life in jeopardy, as hackers sell your private data on dark web and you never know what burglar may show up at your door
- centralized exchanges may perform an exit scam and you lose your money
- centralized exchanges offer your personal information to authorities
- centralized exchanges may even sell your personal information, as it happened in Coinbase's case
- last, but not least, centralized exchanges imply KYC and this topic of 1miau will explain even better the risks associated with KYC: Why KYC is extremely dangerous – and useless.

If all these were not enough for never using a CEx ever again, then maybe this topic of VB1001 may help on this matter: Hacked Exchanges since 2011.

I really dont know in specific the laws of al the EU countries but.... i think we have like in all the earth two types of law, the Roman law based (mayority of latin countries) and the common law or anglosaxon based.

I said this because im not sure how things works in the other system.

Well for me if you have also a really good lawyer you dont have to have mayor problems because, where are the bitcoins? In your app or in where the app its based? are you really travel with them or are you only moving yourself and after you reach them from another destination?. And one more WHERE are the BTC really? in the network, in the blockchain.... so nowhere, if the law its not specific they cant touch you (yes they always touch you ).

Lets me take an example from the traditional world, if i have a credit/debit card with 50000 euros, i dont have to say "o look i have in the account linked to this card X ammount of money" i travel and i spend the money. I know you are gonna say, "yes , but the funds never moves from the origin country or account" and yes, but the BTC also, doesnt move.

I know its a little bit tricky to understand or maybe im not good expresing this and my grammar in english its no so good, but i think you can catch the point.

And one last thing, the mayority of countries look over the bags or whatever but in terms of money they only catch some bigs or absurd movements , because after all they only waits until you buy a big thing (house car etc) and in that moment they come and say "ohh look , from where its the money?" and in economical delits the charge of the proof its inverted, you are not innocent you have to prove you are innocent, and in that moment its when you have to show from where the money came.

That is a bad idea to execute for obvious reasons because if the airport security don't confiscate it, some curious onlooker could still photocopy it and run away (and take your cash later).


That is not a particularly good idea and it is not something you want to be explaining in front of court if you are caught doing that.

I think that even if I don't take into account the CEX-KYC problems (since Gazeta already did), depositing such big amounts of money into others' pockets "just in case" is by far the worse idea.
The point here was about avoiding problems, not getting into bigger ones.
Bitcoin is about being your own bank. Since you can easily store/hide your wallet's seed in your luggage (not all in the same place!), why use a CEX?!!?

I know centralized exchange is bad since ftx case but I do believe you are using Cex for withdraw your money right, besides that this is temporary you across border and when u arrive withdraw the money 

or just back to my first option using opendime

Lol! It's a pity, but I think you are right here. I also said something similar in an earlier post, but there I was referring to the (im)possibility of trying to reason with custom officers about the bitcoins, which are actually held on blockchain, not by you and you can move them using private keys.

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Then, compared with your experience, I guess I should say that I was lucky Although they made me almost lose my next flight, they made me feel like a criminal for no valid reason and they scared the shit out of me when they brought those doge out of nowhere (for a few seconds I thought they'll threaten me with the dogs for saying what they wanted to hear -- or, at least, to try to intimidate me using the dogs). I am not sure, but I think they were two dogs, not just one. And they were ferocious-looking dobermans.


Seems legit /s 

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Lol, what? Use a centralized exchange?

Sorry for asking that, but you are an old user... you still don't know to what dangers you expose yourself by using a centralized exchange?

I had a similar situation in one of the eastern countries where I flew from Turkey. But ended up checking the documents. There are a lot of up-to-date scanners at the Istanbul airport, and it is impossible to carry prohibited items there. The customs officers were not interested in a phone or a laptop, but now they can check any equipment.

But the logic of the customs officers from Athens surprises me. In Russia, customs officers will never tell you why you were detained for checking documents and things. Customs officers have such a right. Instead of apologizing for the inconvenience, they told you that you are to blame, because you are flying on 3 planes
I always thought the more airports I visit, the greater the risk of being checked.

I dont have knowledge about this but i don't think they will check your e-wallet from your phone. I mean if do they check you can carry opendime fill it with bitcoin and says that is regular USB thumbdrive

or deposit your money or btc to a centralized exchange and withdraw it when you arrive in destination country but of course you need a liquid exchange like binance

That's the thing with different cases, the completely free movement without control is only for the Schengen area Bulgaria, Romania, and Cyprus still have full border control, and passing from Romania to Hungary in theory should be just like entering Italy from Tunisia, the fact the controls are more relaxed for EU citizens doesn't really matter, and since OP is from Romania, things are different than for the rest of us. He will have to go through those controls, thus the risks of running into an imbecile that wants to make a quota of seized...something.

As for the Bitcoin issue, it's pretty simple and once they will take their time to adopt clear laws specifically for it it will most likely be required to declare it just as cash and gold, the logic is pretty simple (for them)
- you enter with cash, gold, bitcoins, nobody can track where you have spent it and whom you have given it to
- you enter with 1 million on a debit card, it still can be tracked, ATM, resort hotel, shop, casino it's there

That's all they care about, they will not listen to logical things like the fact that you could send those coins while you're over the Atlantic ocean, toss your phone in the Mediterranean, and still those coins would get into the country without them being able to stop, it's far easier to make other do something.


Doesn't work like that, all the money is seized in that situation, but again, seized and not confiscated since confiscation is possible in the EU only with a final decision on individual cases, so even if the border guards do seize your cash you still have a chance to get them back. If the court decides you haven't provided enough evidence of ..a lot of things, lol, like source, the fact that you did this without ulterior motive and so on, then they get confiscated and are gone for good.

That being said I've traveled before 2007 a few times with sums over that amount into Germany and Austria, and they didn't give a damn, never bothered to actually check the amount, signed the papers and get out of here already!

O...my.. god.... LOL!!!!


Actually I've seen this logic (at Discovery Channel or similar) on Airport Security related shows and the logic is that if you change too many planes or you stay only a day at a vacation place you're automatically suspicious (because the detour/extra stops may mean you meet some dealers).


Well, "soon" is a relative term. But in 10-15 years we should have it.  Maybe earlier, who knows?

Actually, that happened to me once, when I was returning from Crete. I had to take 3 planes from there (Crete - Thessaloniki; Thessaloniki - Athens; Athens - Bucharest). When I reached Athens, just after I got off the plane, some 3 weird-looking-bearded-small guys came to me and said some gibberish. I did not understand anything and, at first, I ignored them, thinking they are beggars  (Yes, seriously!) But they came after me. Seeing they insist I thought they need some assistance and I told myself to hear them out. I asked 3 times the guy to repeat himself until I understood what he was saying: "Police airport, follow us please"". His English was so poor it was very hard to understand.

Seeing I finally understood who they are, he also showed me his badge and I followed him, being scared I may lose my next plane, which was only 40 minutes later. I kept asking what's the problem but they did not say anything until I reached unto a small room and they started checking all my luggage, while asking me drug-related questions: if I like drugs / when is last time I smoked pot / if I knew that in Crete you can find best hash etc. When he asked last question I wanted to say "Sadly, I did not know that when I arrived there but now that you say it I feel like going back" =)))

He kept inspecting my suitcases while he talked, checking for hidden parts. He also checked a bag with dirty socks, lol. In the end he also brought a dog to smell everything.

And, after all this procedure ended, they told me I looked suspicious because I was returning home with 3 planes, instead of 1 or 2 (facepalm). And I was almost losing my plane because of them!

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Lol! That's funny yet great idea

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Do you think such ambiguous legislation will be updated soon...?

I'd argue that it isn't the same. A wallet is a container. It can be empty, or carry $1000, or $10 million. Many hardware wallets don't display the amount that they contain. You have to connect it to an app and unlock it to see the contents.

The TSA don't have the means and time to check the contents of a wallet. I don't see a way you could get in trouble over a hardware wallet.

What about a metal hardware wallet that contains your private key or seed words? Do you think that when they see a metal piece with some random letters and numbers they're going to take it from you because you could be smuggling money on it?

You can hide bitcoin in every electronic device including drones, action cameras, phones, music players, portable speakers... I have an infrared camera that can store images so it can also store a private key. It's impossible to check all of these at the airport.

Let's try a different approach: if you own $23M in Bitcoin, you can't prove you don't have have it with you! So if they find it because you have a physical wallet with you, you could just as well have hidden it. You also may not have any plans to use it, you're just on vacation and don't want to risk leaving your hardware wallet unattended at home. Or, the alternative, you have 12 seed words in your memory and nobody can find anything on you. So the physical wallet with $23M they find is only a piece of evidence, but doesn't change anything else. What if you have one of those bought wallet.dat files that pretends to hold 1000 Bitcoin? You don't know the password, and it doesn't even exist because the wallet is fake, but will it still get you in trouble?

That's very easy: create a signed raw transaction, and schedule it to broadcast at a certain time. Use locktime to make sure it can't be broadcasted earlier. Bitcoin Core and Electrum allow command line access, so a simple cronjob will do. You can even bring the raw transaction, print it, or send it to your email. Alternatively, you can hide your funds slightly beyond your wallet's address gap limit. It's so easy to hide funds, criminals must be really stupid to get caught while crossing a border. And that brings me back to the law-abiding citizens (who didn't think it through), who can be a "victim" to this while crossing borders.

I don't understand you. I am not talking about that. I was talking about crossing borders with $23M in Bitcoin and said that you could encounter the same potential problems with the same amout in cash, but not that you (or someone) is going to cross the border with that amount in cash to make a payment in Bitcoin. That, indeed, wouldn't make sense.


Law abiding citizens who carry enormous amount os undeclared funds (it doesn't matter if it is in Bitcoin, cash, gold or whatever), like tens of millions as in the example,  better worry about it. No matter if they are of legal origin.


Thank you for this idea. Couldn't we come up with a variation? Let's imagine you have to go to a country outside the EU and they are going to give you trouble if they find you any amount of Bitcoin. Couldn't you leave a transaction programmed from a wallet at home, and take an empty HW with you? For example.

There is a possible cases one would have $23M in Bitcoin; just then that person would most probably travel with a private jet though.
I expect a good number of initial investors have spent only small(er) portions at $10, $100, $1000, $10000 and still have some.


I think that's a gray area. Imho it's like with the VISA card. You can have much more than 10k on your VISA card or as deposits in your account and you don't have to declare it.
After all, normally and legally one will most probably sell bitcoins at a CEX or, anyway, with money coming into his bank account.

However, one can easily keep his seed phrase safely and separately and he can avoid surprises until the legislation becomes clearer.

The required customs declaration discussed in this thread only refers to cash and cash equivalents. A Rolex (or similar luxury product) does not fall under cash equivalents.

I don't think there's any other rules under which you'd have to declare it at all (being an item intended for personal use), though depending on the item more specific restrictions may apply. Unless of course you're wearing multiple Rolex watches, at which point customs will presume that you're importing them and certain taxes apply. But that's still unrelated to the declaration requirements for cash and cash equivalents.

You need to declare everything that is above the 10k limit, but obviously there's room for human error. 

First example would be cash, yes you could fit in 22x 500 EUR notes in to your jacket and pass through the check up without any issues, but if caught, it's obvious what you're doing, so you'll get in trouble.

Second example would be a Rolex watch, sure you can try to get from one country over to the next one with the latest submariner on your wrist, but if caught, you'll get in trouble again since it's not that hard to spot a submariner.

Third example would be silver, sure you can try to get 15k EUR worth of silver from one country to another disguised in pans (yes it's a thing, people make pans from silver), but you'll get in trouble if they find it out.
 
Your example, bitcoins, is the same thing. If you're having it on your phone in an app, and not like cash in your pocket or a rolex on your wrist, you might get away with it. But if it's on a well-known easy to spot hardware wallet and within your bag that gets scanned - you might get in to trouble. It's not properly regulated and depends on your risk appetite.

It still doesn't make sense. Unlike carrying $23M in cash (about 460 kg in $50 bills), you don't need to physically cross a border to make a $23M payment in Bitcoin. Anyone with bad intentions can make sure there's nothing to find on him while traveling, but law abiding citizens have to worry about their savings when they go on holiday?

You could just as well schedule a transaction to be broadcasted to a different wallet 12 hours later, so if you're in jail they'll see the funds disappear.

Well, there really are no borders. There is free movement of people, capital and goods within the EU. If there is no limit to cash payments in some cases, there is no limit to the money you can carry with you if it is of legal origin (even if you are supposed to declare them in some cases).


No, we have talked about this example several times in this section in different threads, and I always say the same thing: if you carry $23M in Bitcoin as in the example you give, and the police see it (suppose you are careless and have the Ledger Live app without password protection on your laptop, which is not password protected either, and the police officer who understands the issue sees the $23M in the app), at least they will confiscate it and probably detain you preventively while they make further inquiries.

It's all a matter of quantity. Al Capone was convicted of tax evasion, which is the only thing they could prove. He had everything very well tied up except the economic issue: he had much more money than he could legally justify.

Besides, the $23M does not add up. Suppose your annual salary is around the average annual salary in the EU, about €45k. What do you do with $23M unspent? The other thing that also doesn't add up is people not selling as an investment goes up tends 0 as the investment goes up more. If you bought or were gifted 1k Bitcoin when it was worth $1, it's very rare that you didn't sell at $10, even rarer that you didn't sell at $100 etc.

All those things that are unexplained coupled with an exorbitant amount of funds lead the police to preemptively confiscate and investigate you for sure.


Yes, that is clear. There is free movement of people in the EU, but we are talking for illustrative purposes.


Yes, the truth is that actually nowadays, you can move around Europe with as much Bitcoin as you want (well, with your keys) that the probability of being searched and found is almost 0, and even closer to 0 if you are a little careful.