Pages:
Author

Topic: Should BTC amounts greater than 10.000E be declared when leaving the country? - page 3. (Read 432 times)

legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 6012
Decentralization Maximalist
I was interested in this question as well, so I asked ChatGPT Wink

I took the example of France, and they pointed me to the French customs website. While the link provided by ChatGPT was dead, indeed there is a site where "digital currency" is mentioned:

https://www.douane.gouv.fr/fiche/obligation-declare-cash-securities-and-valuables

Quote
You must declare the following only during physical cross-border transfers to or from an EU country:

Casino plaques, chips and vouchers, digital currency and gold exchange-traded products


I wonder what "during physical cross-border transfers" means. Does that mean like some speculated in this thread, that it applies only to paper wallets and such? A mobile wallet or passphrase paper could however also be viewed as "physical".

Maybe if this is true, a solution could consist in carrying a password which allows you to access a server in your home country, where you can see your passphrase/wallet credentials? (This would be highly unsafe, however.)

(addition: of course this applies only to amounts of more than €10.000. But 0,5 BTC is already more than that ...)
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 2066
Cashback 15%
As for the law, and I'm sure we all have the same. It concerns cash, cheques and alike, prepaid cards, and gold (no problem with silver or diamonds, :p)
Bitcoin is not concerned by this law

I've got bad news for you, I'm sorry Sad

Equivalent means of payment are e.g.:

  • passbooks
  • precious stones (rough or cut), e.g. diamonds, rubies, sapphires or emeralds
  • gold in the form of
    • coins with a gold content of less than 90%
    • gold bullion in the form of bars, nuggets or nuggets with a gold content of less than 99.5%
  • other precious metals, e.g. platinum or silver

No talk of cryptocurrencies or other intagible assets though.

(also no problem with gold in the form of powder, foil, coins with a gold content of more than 90% and gold bullion with a gold content of more than 99.5% :p)
copper member
Activity: 2828
Merit: 4065
Top Crypto Casino
@LoyceV is right.

The rule applies to gold as well, and I believe for each of us in EU.
Europe is a colander. Very rare are the moments you're checked while crossing a border. It happened only once with me.
In some countries you can't surely know you're crossing a border, you hardly see a custom office.

Guess how refugees travel...

As for the law, and I'm sure we all have the same. It concerns cash, cheques and alike, prepaid cards, and gold (no problem with silver or diamonds, :p)
Bitcoin is not concerned by this law
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1080
Ask the border patrol that is the only way you will get a definite answer but I think it would raise suspicions and would go against their rules of carrying more than what they normally allow into the country but it is not cash and they could treat it like a bank account you might be lucky. If they treat it like a bank account then  I do not see any reason why you would run into problems because they allow people into the country with more then $10000 all the time. If it was physical btc I think they would have a problem but btc is like money in a bank. I think the reason they do not like people bringing cash into the country is because it could be laundered.
hero member
Activity: 1643
Merit: 683
LoyceV on the road. Or couch.
Just curious, what makes you feel safer in Europe, if you would be in this situation?
I'm already within EU, and traveling to another country isn't very exciting. Nobody checks anything, kinda like crossing state borders within the US.

Back to declaring Bitcoin at customs: if you say you travel with 100,000 dollar worth of Bitcoin, even though you have no intention to spend it all, I wonder how they react. My guess is they find it kinda suspicious.

Quote
   Gold bars, nuggets or clumps with a gold content of at least 99.5 %.
(The part about gold bars may be also an answer for the example given by LoyceV about that Italian smuggling gold bars.)
So if he would have carried gold of only 99%, he would have been fine?
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 6524
Fully-fledged Merit Cycler|Spambuster'23|Pie Baker
I think it depends on what your intentions are in the country you're travelling to. If you plan to use (unlock) your wallet while you're there then yes.

I found a Swedish travel site that says:
Quote
Besides notes and coins, “cash and equivalent assets” is also defined as traveller’s cheques, cheques, promissory notes, debt instruments, debentures, shares, money orders and securities.

I'm thinking bitcoin is closest related to cheques

Thanks for the link. However, there is no clear statement of the term cryptocurrency... In some fields (in banking, for example) it's written in plain sight that you are not allowed to use the account for incomes obtained from crypto. Therefore I'm thinking that if in some fields the term crypto (or cryptocurrency) is used, it should be also used in case it influences somehow passing the border...



If you're not going to unlock your wallet or spend funds from it then I think it's unlikely you have to tell anyone. I also think you'd probably be safe unlocking your wallet to send funds to an exchange in your home country, converting your crypto to that currency and paying using your bank card for things (but you may be safer holding funds on an exchange as you travel as it'll be considered similar to a bank account then).

I never used a centralized exchange nor I ever will Smiley They are pure evil and you expose yourself to very high risks by using them. What I was thinking about was a possible situation when someone simply wants to have some backup money crypto with him and, in case he runs out of cash, he could go to a cash-in / cash-out crypto ATM and exchange some crypto with fiat.

The part about not going to spend funds from the wallet and if so there would not be any need to say anything to anyone -- what difference would it make even if they would question you (assuming that they (custom officers) would find out somehow that you're carrying a crypto wallet), then you'd tell them you don't intend to use it and still use it at a crypto ATM? Smiley Or at a local shop or restaurant which could accept crypto payments? Nobody would know that you made that transaction, right? Smiley

By the way, thinking about this a funny pic came into my mind:





I've been wondering about this too, but I'm mainly curious if I'd have to declare Bitcoin hodlings when entering the US. Within Schengen/EU, I'm not so worried about it.

Just curious, what makes you feel safer in Europe, if you would be in this situation?

What if you just wrote 12 seed words on a piece of paper? What if you memorized the 12 words?

This would be even easier Smiley

A more fundamental question is: do you carry Bitcoin? One could argue you don't carry it: Bitcoin doesn't exist on an address, it exists only on the blockchain. How is that different than bringing my online banking credentials, which allows me to transfer more than €10,000?

That's a very good question... But, honestly, what do you think the outcome would be in case someone (caught by a customs officer with an undeclared BTC wallet holding more than the equivalent of 10.000E) would try to have this debate with the customs officer? Smiley It's hard to imagine the custom officer would have the necessary knowledge or the will to understand that, in fact, you don't physically have BTC, but you only poses private keys which allow you move some coins, if you want to.



It is also worth noting that when shares and securities are mentioned as "cash or equivalent assets" that have to be declared, they are referring to the physical certificates. Otherwise folks would have to declare their investment bank accounts.

I think they might be able to make a case if you were to carry physical bitcoins or paper wallets

This is what I'm also thinking...



then you can argue for a long time about whether you are obliged to say at the border that you know by heart the seed phrase from a cryptocurrency wallet that stores, for example, $ 10,000,000.

I made some checks but not even Google is able to answer to this question. However, this is what I found about European Union Cash Controls:

Quote
As part of the EU’s efforts to tackle money laundering and the financing of terrorism, all travellers entering or leaving EU territory are already obliged to complete a cash declaration when carrying EUR 10 000 or more (or equivalent in other currencies, bonds, shares or travellers’ cheques). Customs authorities are empowered to check persons, their luggage and their means of transport. They are also empowered to detain undeclared cash. [...]

1) The definition of ‘cash’ in the rules will be extended to include certain other valuable items.

This means that as of that date, you must lodge a cash declaration if you are carrying EUR 10 000 (or its equivalent in other currencies) or more in value of one or more of the following items included under the new definition of cash, when entering or leaving the EU:

    Banknotes and coins (including currency now out of general circulation but that can still be exchanged in a financial institution or central bank),
    Bearer negotiable instruments such as cheques, travellers’ cheques, promissory notes and money orders,
    Gold coins with a gold content of at least 90 %,
    Gold bars, nuggets or clumps with a gold content of at least 99.5 %.

(The part about gold bars may be also an answer for the example given by LoyceV about that Italian smuggling gold bars.)

From what I see, there is no reference to cryptocurrency.

However, even if there would be a reference inside the law (a law which I / we can't find at the moment) for being coerced to declare if you own BTC worth of more than 10.000E -- this would only raise more questions in my head: what happens if you have a wallet with BTC worth of -- let's say -- 8000E (thus you don't declare it when leaving the country) and, when you reach your destination, BTC price soars and your wallet is worth of more than 10.000E without you even thinking about it? They'll simply confiscate your money which value more than 10.000E due to a sudden price growth?
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 4270
I know there is a law which forbids leaving the country if you carry with you more than 10.000 euros. Actually, the law forbids avoiding to declare amounts greater than 10.000 euros and, if caught, the money are confiscated and a criminal investigation is started by authorities. As far as I know, a similar US law was issued in the past, but the amount in question was 10.000$.

However, my question relates to situation in Europe, not in US.

If any has legal knowledge, I'd like to know if you can leave the country (any European country) and enter in another (European) country while carrying with you a wallet containing BTC worth of more than 10.000 euros, without declaring it. Should a BTC wallet be declared at custom office? And what if that wallet is a software wallet... a mobile wallet? What happens if you don't declare it? They can't see that you have an app on your mobile phone, which is a BTC wallet, right? Even if a custom officer would be too zealous and search travelers' phones, looking for crypto wallets (which I highly doubt), a user can always just delete de app and reinstall it once arrived at destination, right? And there simply restore the wallet.

I don't know... is this illegal? Is it legal? Has anyone encountered with such situation? I am trying to understand how law works (or should work) in such cases. As far as I know, since a country does not accept BTC as legal tender, nobody should declare any crypto wallet he has on his phone nor if it is a hardware wallet as, in front of the State, he is not carrying money with him. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Topic is self-moderated for avoiding spam.
The main principle of the legislation says: "Everything that is not prohibited is allowed." (C) But this principle does not apply to employees of state bodies.
And then you can argue for a long time about whether you are obliged to say at the border that you know by heart the seed phrase from a cryptocurrency wallet that stores, for example, $ 10,000,000. In my country, common sense and personal safety should come first.

jr. member
Activity: 99
Merit: 3
I know there is a law which forbids leaving the country if you carry with you more than 10.000 euros. Actually, the law forbids avoiding to declare amounts greater than 10.000 euros and, if caught, the money are confiscated and a criminal investigation is started by authorities. As far as I know, a similar US law was issued in the past, but the amount in question was 10.000$.

However, my question relates to situation in Europe, not in US.

If any has legal knowledge, I'd like to know if you can leave the country (any European country) and enter in another (European) country while carrying with you a wallet containing BTC worth of more than 10.000 euros, without declaring it. Should a BTC wallet be declared at custom office? And what if that wallet is a software wallet... a mobile wallet? What happens if you don't declare it? They can't see that you have an app on your mobile phone, which is a BTC wallet, right? Even if a custom officer would be too zealous and search travelers' phones, looking for crypto wallets (which I highly doubt), a user can always just delete de app and reinstall it once arrived at destination, right? And there simply restore the wallet.

I don't know... is this illegal? Is it legal? Has anyone encountered with such situation? I am trying to understand how law works (or should work) in such cases. As far as I know, since a country does not accept BTC as legal tender, nobody should declare any crypto wallet he has on his phone nor if it is a hardware wallet as, in front of the State, he is not carrying money with him. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Topic is self-moderated for avoiding spam.

Every country has its own laws. It all depends on which country you are leaving and which country you are planning to visit. For example, you can import into France without declaring an amount not exceeding 10,000 euros. This includes not only cash in euros, but also all cash in any currency.

As far as I know, the "Ten Thousand Rule" applies to all EU countries; however, when entering the EU, it is advisable to clarify the procedure for transporting cash for a particular country.

There is a law in Europe that states: "Any natural person entering or leaving the EU and carrying cash of a value of €10,000 or more is required to declare that amount to the competent authorities of the Member State through which he/she is entering or leaving the EU."

But given that there is currently no single law regulating cryptocurrencies in Europe, I believe that the contents of a Bitcoin wallet do not need to be declared.
legendary
Activity: 2912
Merit: 2066
Cashback 15%
I don't think you have to declare the contents of your Bitcoin wallet. After all it's not different from having access to a bank account with a balance in excess of EUR 10,000,-.

It is also worth noting that when shares and securities are mentioned as "cash or equivalent assets" that have to be declared, they are referring to the physical certificates. Otherwise folks would have to declare their investment bank accounts.

I think they might be able to make a case if you were to carry physical bitcoins or paper wallets. But arguably even that would be on shaky grounds unless the material value exceeds the 10k. (ie. you can sell a physical security only once. You can cash out a cheque only once. But if you're kind of a dick you could sell the same paper wallet to multiple, unsuspecting buyers and even empty it out afterwards)
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
However, my question relates to situation in Europe, not in US.
I've been wondering about this too, but I'm mainly curious if I'd have to declare Bitcoin hodlings when entering the US. Within Schengen/EU, I'm not so worried about it.

Quote
Even if a custom officer would be too zealous and search travelers' phones, looking for crypto wallets (which I highly doubt), a user can always just delete de app and reinstall it once arrived at destination, right? And there simply restore the wallet.
What if you just wrote 12 seed words on a piece of paper? What if you memorized the 12 words?

Quote
As far as I know, since a country does not accept BTC as legal tender, nobody should declare any crypto wallet he has on his phone nor if it is a hardware wallet as, in front of the State, he is not carrying money with him. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Gold isn't legal tender, and yet, this Italian was arrested smuggling 6 gold bars on Schiphol.



A more fundamental question is: do you carry Bitcoin? One could argue you don't carry it: Bitcoin doesn't exist on an address, it exists only on the blockchain. How is that different than bringing my online banking credentials, which allows me to transfer more than €10,000?
copper member
Activity: 2856
Merit: 3071
https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory
I think it depends on what your intentions are in the country you're travelling to. If you plan to use (unlock) your wallet while you're there then yes.

I found a Swedish travel site that says:
Quote
Besides notes and coins, “cash and equivalent assets” is also defined as traveller’s cheques, cheques, promissory notes, debt instruments, debentures, shares, money orders and securities.

https://www.tullverket.se/en/startpage/private/travelling/travelling/travellingwithcashandorequivalentassets.4.311bf4f016e69d6ea0d9df.html

I'm thinking bitcoin is closest related to cheques (and at that probably cashiers cheques or similar - when the cheque pays you - where it's money that represents legal tender but not officially issued by the government).



If you're not going to unlock your wallet or spend funds from it then I think it's unlikely you have to tell anyone. I also think you'd probably be safe unlocking your wallet to send funds to an exchange in your home country, converting your crypto to that currency and paying using your bank card for things (but you may be safer holding funds on an exchange as you travel as it'll be considered similar to a bank account then).
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 6524
Fully-fledged Merit Cycler|Spambuster'23|Pie Baker
I know there is a law which forbids leaving the country if you carry with you more than 10.000 euros. Actually, the law forbids avoiding to declare amounts greater than 10.000 euros and, if caught, the money are confiscated and a criminal investigation is started by authorities. As far as I know, a similar US law was issued in the past, but the amount in question was 10.000$.

However, my question relates to situation in Europe, not in US.

If any has legal knowledge, I'd like to know if you can leave the country (any European country) and enter in another (European) country while carrying with you a wallet containing BTC worth of more than 10.000 euros, without declaring it. Should a BTC wallet be declared at custom office? And what if that wallet is a software wallet... a mobile wallet? What happens if you don't declare it? They can't see that you have an app on your mobile phone, which is a BTC wallet, right? Even if a custom officer would be too zealous and search travelers' phones, looking for crypto wallets (which I highly doubt), a user can always just delete de app and reinstall it once arrived at destination, right? And there simply restore the wallet.

I don't know... is this illegal? Is it legal? Has anyone encountered with such situation? I am trying to understand how law works (or should work) in such cases. As far as I know, since a country does not accept BTC as legal tender, nobody should declare any crypto wallet he has on his phone nor if it is a hardware wallet as, in front of the State, he is not carrying money with him. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Topic is self-moderated for avoiding spam.
Pages:
Jump to: