Should the bitcoin community ban the Satoshi Dice filter patch? - page 5.

Raoul Duke

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Quote from: Killdozer on March 09, 2013, 04:53:50 PM

Quote

On December 23, 2011, VisaNet processed 11,000 / second - source http://blog.visa.com/2011/01/12/visa-transactions-hit-peak-on-dec-23/ - That's 950,400,000 transactions per day.

At 24,000 SD transactions per day is .002525% of that traffic. Said another way, Bitcoin is nowhere near ready for the global stage if 1,000 dust transactions per hour grinds the system to a halt.

If SD is a problem, fix bitcoin.

All trolling aside, this is the fucking truth.
We should be thankful to SatoshiDice for practically highlighting the scalability flaws of bitcoin (like hitting the soft block size limit). If the community starts shiting bricks when SatoshiDice sends a few transactions, what happens if someone starts sharing internet for microtransactions? Or when a real casino starts using bitcoin? Or whatever?

A real real casino? One with deposit and withdrawal pages and it's own accounting ledger?

Killdozer

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Quote

On December 23, 2011, VisaNet processed 11,000 / second - source http://blog.visa.com/2011/01/12/visa-transactions-hit-peak-on-dec-23/ - That's 950,400,000 transactions per day.

At 24,000 SD transactions per day is .002525% of that traffic. Said another way, Bitcoin is nowhere near ready for the global stage if 1,000 dust transactions per hour grinds the system to a halt.

If SD is a problem, fix bitcoin.

All trolling aside, this is the fucking truth.
We should be thankful to SatoshiDice for practically highlighting the scalability flaws of bitcoin (like hitting the soft block size limit). If the community starts shiting bricks when SatoshiDice sends a few transactions, what happens if someone starts sharing internet for microtransactions? Or when a real casino starts using bitcoin? Or whatever?

paraipan

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Firstbits: 1pirata

Quote from: Scrat Acorns on March 09, 2013, 02:18:22 PM

Free market goes both ways and if the miners choose not to relay spam then SD will have to adapt. This is not about shutting them down, it is about them using proper netiquette. We're all in this together using a shared resource which we would like to see boom over the following years. Good manners would go a long way towards that outcome.

I consider 1 satoshi* transactions that are basically equal to "LOL YOU LOSE" as spam.

* Recently been changed to 5000, but it's the same thing.

^ 100% agreed, is about netiquette within a shared medium. Think at it like a crowded room where someone starts farting continuously and pollutes all the air Undecided

Btw, someone knows C++ programming? I need to have some features done for my bitcoin wallet, even if Gavin would not see them as crucial. Please add to the reward if you would like to see it done too.

optimator

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Quote from: blockbet.net on March 09, 2013, 02:16:35 PM

Quote from: optimator on March 09, 2013, 01:41:42 PM

If SD is a problem FIX BITCOIN. SD is only the tip of the iceberg for transactions to come. Bitcoin must be ready or it will fail. Please don't set bitcoin up for failure because of moral objections to how it is used.

SD is not "the tip of the iceberg". Let's imagine a bitcoin-operated coffee shop and compare it to Satoshidice. Assume you have 1000 customers at your coffee shop every day, everybody makes one purchase. 1000 transactions spread over a day is not much.

With Satoshidice, a single user can generate 1000 transactions in an hour. He might even set up a martingale bot that was running 24 hours per day. Imagine a thousand customers doing the same, and you can start to see the problem.

In short: A couple of people using Satoshidice can generate more transactions than a ton of other businesses combined.

And I'm not even talking about the dust.

Here's the iceberg:

On December 23, 2011, VisaNet processed 11,000 / second - source http://blog.visa.com/2011/01/12/visa-transactions-hit-peak-on-dec-23/ - That's 950,400,000 transactions per day.

At 24,000 SD transactions per day is .002525% of that traffic. Said another way, Bitcoin is nowhere near ready for the global stage if 1,000 dust transactions per hour grinds the system to a halt.

If SD is a problem, fix bitcoin.

MysteryMiner

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Death to enemies!

The people have right to choose what software modifications they run on computers. But I strongly oppose the patch. It is not going to solve the problem of transaction volume. And I don't see a problem in first place.

We cannot code patches for every pesky service out there. I don't care is it Satoshi Dice who are filling the blockchain or Silk Road weed sales. Valid transaction is valid transaction.

justusranvier

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Quote from: Raoul Duke on March 09, 2013, 02:21:22 PM

keyword: eventually

https://www.khanacademy.org/math/arithmetic/exponents-radicals/world-of-exponents/v/understanding-exponents

bullioner

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Quote from: J180 on March 08, 2013, 05:20:06 AM

Don't worry guys.

I spoke to the bitcoin police and they tell me they are keeping a close watch on the Satoshi Dice situation. They've interviewed three of the developers so far, and one of them remains in custody at my local bitcoin station.

Classic -- thanks for the laugh.

Raoul Duke

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Quote from: justusranvier on March 09, 2013, 02:19:35 PM

Quote from: blockbet.net on March 09, 2013, 02:16:35 PM

SD is not "the tip of the iceberg". Let's imagine a bitcoin-operated coffee shop and compare it to Satoshidice. Assume you have 1000 customers at your coffee shop every day, everybody makes one purchase. 1000 transactions spread over a day is not much.

One coffee shop is still part of the tip of the iceberg.

Bitcoin eventually needs to be able to handle multiple coffee chains, each with tens of thousands of stores, all serving 1000 customers per day.

keyword: eventually

justusranvier

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Quote from: blockbet.net on March 09, 2013, 02:16:35 PM

SD is not "the tip of the iceberg". Let's imagine a bitcoin-operated coffee shop and compare it to Satoshidice. Assume you have 1000 customers at your coffee shop every day, everybody makes one purchase. 1000 transactions spread over a day is not much.

One coffee shop is still part of the tip of the iceberg.

Bitcoin eventually needs to be able to handle multiple coffee chains, each with tens of thousands of stores, all serving 1000 customers per day.

Scrat Acorns

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Free market goes both ways and if the miners choose not to relay spam then SD will have to adapt. This is not about shutting them down, it is about them using proper netiquette. We're all in this together using a shared resource which we would like to see boom over the following years. Good manners would go a long way towards that outcome.

I consider 1 satoshi* transactions that are basically equal to "LOL YOU LOSE" as spam.

* Recently been changed to 5000, but it's the same thing.

blockbet.net

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Admin at blockbet.net

Quote from: optimator on March 09, 2013, 01:41:42 PM

If SD is a problem FIX BITCOIN. SD is only the tip of the iceberg for transactions to come. Bitcoin must be ready or it will fail. Please don't set bitcoin up for failure because of moral objections to how it is used.

SD is not "the tip of the iceberg". Let's imagine a bitcoin-operated coffee shop and compare it to Satoshidice. Assume you have 1000 customers at your coffee shop every day, everybody makes one purchase. 1000 transactions spread over a day is not much.

With Satoshidice, a single user can generate 1000 transactions in an hour. He might even set up a martingale bot that was running 24 hours per day. Imagine a thousand customers doing the same, and you can start to see the problem.

In short: A couple of people using Satoshidice can generate more transactions than a ton of other businesses combined.

And I'm not even talking about the dust.

Raoul Duke

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Quote from: pyra-proxy on March 08, 2013, 01:25:34 AM

What SD is doing and what this patch is doing and what the OP is doing is akin to the following analogy....

Bully is punching another student in the face, that student is trying to cover their face with their hands to dampen the blow, all while a third student is asking everyone to get mad at and hold the seconds students hands down because he is hurting the bullies choice to punch people in the face.... Huh

Let'em come. We'll see who gets punched and who needs to cover their face. Grin

Dogs who bark a lot rarely bit, haven't you heard? And this ones here aren't even dogs, just puppies.

optimator

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Quote from: misterbigg on March 09, 2013, 01:50:58 PM

Quote from: optimator on March 09, 2013, 01:41:42 PM

But, I fear that the objections to SD cloaked in arguments about technical limitations of bitcoin are really a front for moral objections to gambling.

Not really. You don't hear anyone complaining about http://satoshiroulette.com/ because they aren't creating economically unspendable outputs.

Fair enough. But then why not fix bitcoin? And if dust transactions are truly a problem then shouldn't the free market solve the problem with a solution?

misterbigg

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Quote from: optimator on March 09, 2013, 01:41:42 PM

But, I fear that the objections to SD cloaked in arguments about technical limitations of bitcoin are really a front for moral objections to gambling.

Not really. You don't hear anyone complaining about http://satoshiroulette.com/ because they aren't creating economically unspendable outputs.

optimator

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Well I say let people do what they want....

But, I fear that the objections to SD cloaked in arguments about technical limitations of bitcoin are really a front for moral objections to gambling.

If SD is a problem FIX BITCOIN. SD is only the tip of the iceberg for transactions to come. Bitcoin must be ready or it will fail. Please don't set bitcoin up for failure because of moral objections to how it is used.

Cheers!

rini17

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GO http://bitcointa.lk !!! My new nick: jurov

Quote from: J180 on March 08, 2013, 05:20:06 AM

Don't worry guys.

I spoke to the bitcoin police and they tell me they are keeping a close watch on the Satoshi Dice situation. They've interviewed three of the developers so far, and one of them remains in custody at my local bitcoin station.

I smell class lawsuit against s.dice. Or drones dispatchment.

Gabi

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

The ban will be enforced by the war spaceships of the Bitcoin Confederation or what?

running

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it's funny how the same people talk about how bitcoin will take over the world and take over all transactions... and then they are angry at business that *uses it too much*... I mean come on. Free market and all that jazz!

SD is in my opinion not a spam. They are sending clearly distinguishable transactions, not trying to mask it or anything, and the miners can decide what to do with it.

nelisky

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Quote from: lassdas on March 08, 2013, 02:27:56 AM

Quote from: fancy_pants on March 08, 2013, 02:20:29 AM

this thread is for pumping satoshidice

Yeah, that's what I thought
"..completely neutral..", huh? Cheesy

IMO SD is just a spam-attack to the bitcoin-network, so I'll happily support every pool that applies this patch, good luck banning it.

I am "completely neutral" about DICEonCRACK

and we are trying to prevent getting into the same spam issue as SD by grouping payouts as best as we can: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1598128 and by providing a wallet proxy (for now only on IRC) that does not signal losses with dust transactions https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/diceoncrack-on-irc-with-ltc-trc-giveaway-147722

I honestly believe that a proper solution needs to be found for the transaction spam issue for bitcoin as a whole, not targeting any specific service as this is severely needed to ensure bitcoin will survive globalization. Also, each miner has the freedom to choose which transactions to include in the found blocks, period. I wouldn't join a pool that filters anything because I believe the prioritization currently in existence is good enough. I'm invested in bitcoins for many reasons, not the least of which being the lack of central authority. We can boycott but we can't ban, simple as that, only a majority vote can steer the network one way or another, not an institution or a core group of developers.

This post started as a simple shameless plug "look at me, I'm trying neat solutions here" but ended up with my personal view of the problem... I need to learn to stay on topic!

greyhawk

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Quote from: Melbustus on March 08, 2013, 02:51:25 AM

Now there's a problem that solves itself... Why would someone create a bot to place negative expectation bets? Unless there are progressives that get +EV sometimes. In which case, I'll be taking a break from this forum for a couple days to write a SatoshiDice bot. :-)

They're trying to Martingale SatoshiDice. It's a common Bitcoiner problem: the inability to learn from past experience.

Topic: Should the bitcoin community ban the Satoshi Dice filter patch? - page 5. (Read 14715 times)