Topic: Should we promote acceptance of "zero-conf transactions"? - page 2. (Read 313 times)

Zero-fee transactions belong to past story and nowadays, it rarely happens and only happen if you have miner friends. So most of times, it comes from mining pool owners. The fall or nearly disappearance of zero-fee transactions is a proof of better bitcoin adoption.
It is not a full list but you see some examples on who are miners of zero-fee transactions.

In last 24 hours, there are opportunities to move bitcoin at 1 - 2 satoshis/ (v)byte. 8 - 9 hours ago, mempool was clear again in last few days.
With Lightning network, you can but the problem is adoption of lightning network.
I don't think so. A better stable fee is enough to increase adoption besides better knowledge on how bitcoin transaction works & how transactions get confirmations.

Which one? All the ones I play on require at least 1 confirmation.

Right now, Lightning Network is the only way to promotes BTC payments with lower transaction fees. Unless the exchanges we used is partnered with the stores we always wanted to go. Like we what we have with our local exchanges. Like for example shopee is somehow partnered with coins.ph where when buy things there you don't have to worry about the extra charges the rate is always 1:1 when shopping there. It's the same with some online game stores. If the other stores are likethis, then promoting it to others would have been easy for us.

Even if we get used to it, it would be procrastinating our problems rather than solving it. It could turn into a growing trouble. I'd rather use bitcoin as it is than to use it for paying my taxi or coffee. There are things like lightning project that are trying to achieve the same though freezing some coins and issuing equivalent digital tokens. Other wrapped bitcoin solutions are also getting popular which are a better take to that solution.

Its not going to happen, at least not with people you don't implicitly trust in the first place. The danger of double spending isn't worth it. Indeed LN could be a solution, or simply pay in advance, sort of opening a credit/tab with the merchant/shop whatever.

I don't agree with promoting these as it will encourage scammers and people will blame it on Bitcoin.

Thought about this in the past, and I somewhat agree, as long as the fee is low but still passable(e.g. 5 sats/b). Of course though, this is for cheap merchant transactions like a $4 coffee and such(who the heck would double spend $4?). For bigger transactions like in restaurants, of course merchants wouldn't want risking the loss of $30+ unless probably they have your identity.

I don't think we get to use this kind of "acceptance" though; Lightning is a lot better now compared to when I initially thought of this as a solution. Phoenix Wallet is great! https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/opinions-on-phoenix-wallet-5250677

Interesting topic though. +1

it's too dangerous, unless the transaction is non-RBF and has an extremely high fee well beyond what is reasonably required for reliable confirmation. otherwise the chances of double spending or the network not confirming the transaction are too high.

instead of seeking out instant or nearly instant transactions (high fee, next block confirmation), i think consumers should aim for eg 1-hour confirmation. get used to the idea of waiting for settlement. when everyone is racing to get into the next block, it really drives up the fee market in an exponential way.


with bitcoin's electronic and cross-border nature, i don't think those guarantees are good enough.

bitrefill was one of the only companies accepting zero-confirmation transactions. they recently stopped.

I do agree with you on the fact that the fee should not be set at zero.
I do know one thing :

Since Bitcoins is not centralized and there are numerous small miners working ... Their own income is dependent on the fee that we pay for the transactions.

We cannot get it done securely for free , even if we talk about lightning network:
-It did not demand zero fee but fee was exceptionally low
-Its not safe.

_*_


For sure lightning network is equipped to handle fast transactions but before going on any conclusions we should always remember how it's not safe and therefore I do believe we still have some years left before we can actually have a safer version of it.

_*_

I do believe we should have a upgradation where we cannot cancel the transaction , the ones which are made for any business reason , like: coffee and the person paying and one paid to , should receive a digital receipt of some kind.

Maybe smart contracts can be upgraded and then made into a more simpler version? Since this would not only be easy but also use but also enable some next level security  but then again we have to fight against Centralization amongst all of this.

But more than that am scared about how some people would use these unconfirmed transactions being accepted. For sure some hackers might find a way.

As far as I know, only gambling sites are accepting "zero-conf transactions".

However, if this is going to be accepted universally, we all very familiar with double spend and this will open a pandora's box, just saying.

No. If merchant allows it then the risk of double-spending or accepting bitcoin when the rate changes drastically is higher. Nobody is going to love that. As mentioned earlier, promoting LN is a better idea. While the setup is not as easy as it sounds, I believe it is justified if you want fast but secure (at least to some extent) transactions.

I guess zero confirmation means no verification by "verifiers".
What are the disadvantages of that^(no verification of transactions)? Is it worth the risk? How do you prevent/punish things like doublespending & other abuse that mostly occur due lack of verification or lack of proper verification? I think it's better to prevent abuses with a more robust decentralized/verification system.
I think if you have a different reward model that sufficiently incentive verifiers for their hard work, tiny/small fees and fast confirmation wouldn't be a problem. But you'll need to build something more advanced and well built to make this possible, efficient, easy, sustainable etc

One of the solution to reducing transaction fee is the lightning network, but many people are not using it for now because it is still under development, if fully developed, it can be used for cheap payments like paying for coffee etc. These should even be the main purpose of lightning network (to make payment of small amount of bitcoin)

Another is the use of segwit (bech32) addresses, with the use of such address and sending to such address, transactions fee is reduced in relation to the transaction weight. But this may not be satisfying enough.

There could also be other development in the future that can be used to reduce the transaction fee.

If I were a regular acceptee it's not something I'd encourage or put up with.

Going forward there'll no doubt be phases where low fee transactions will never go through in time and the more people there are the more attempts there'll be to cheat others. I'd expect many people who would never take the piss in real life would be inclined to give it a try on the internet.

Instead of exposing myself to that I'd be looking to accept other shitcoins and stuff like Coinbase internal wallet transfers.

Bitcoin adoption could start growing exponentially once people realized that BTC can be used as money in any place. Right now this is not the case because you either have to pay a pretty high transaction fee, from $2 to $6, or you should wait for a long time for your transaction to be confirmed. That's what most people think, and what is more important, that's what merchants think, refusing to accept payments in BTC.

I think the solution lies in accepting the so called "zero-conf transactions", only the fee, of course, should not be set at zero. Right now, for example(and keep in mind that this is not an advantageous period for such an example), you can pay as little as 2 satoshis/byte for your transaction to be confirmed within 3-4 hours. It means 672 sats, or $0.076, for the median transaction size of 224 bytes.

Will some people try to abuse it? Surely. But with the due process of law, they will be treated as counterfeiters, with all the consequences. So, the vast majority of people will not even think of trying to double spend, just like not many of us think of robbing a bank or counterfeiting money.

Thus, the proverbial "you can't pay for a cup of coffee with Bitcoin" will become obsolete. Anyone can afford spending extra 8 cents, and no one would risk their freedom for trying to steal a cup of coffee.

Please, share your thoughts on this.

TL;DR: I think the key to wider BTC adoption is in accepting zero-conf transactions.