Opinions on Phoenix Wallet? | Bitcointalksearch.org

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 26, 2023, 05:57:41 AM

Quote from: internetional on December 26, 2023, 03:20:34 AM

A closure of such channels may make sense for Phoenix.

You're right, my reasoning was wrong. Most of the funds are locked on Phoenix' end of the channel, and they locked even more than I deposited. Makes me wonder how profitable this is for them: it looks like they're just HODLing their funds in open channels, but they can't earn much unless people send and receive many transactions.

But because Phoenix is building an app that wants to give its users a good UX when using the Lightning Network, then they need to accept the opportunity-cost and boot-strap the the network with liquidity from their own wallet. They may currently not earn much today, but given the need for layered privacy and low fees for small transactions, it could help increase the demand for payment channels.

dkbit98

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Quote from: NotATether on December 26, 2023, 05:53:24 AM

I get that people are going to be tipping more with their phones, but why are the vast majority of lightning wallets either mobile apps or browser extensions?

There is a difference if you are you talking about custodial or non-custodial LN wallets.
I know only one or two desktop wallets that supports Lightning Network, but developers are probably thinking that most people would more likely spend LN in coffee shops and similar places using their phones.

LoyceV

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Quote from: internetional on December 26, 2023, 03:20:34 AM

A closure of such channels may make sense for Phoenix.

You're right, my reasoning was wrong. Most of the funds are locked on Phoenix' end of the channel, and they locked even more than I deposited. Makes me wonder how profitable this is for them: it looks like they're just HODLing their funds in open channels, but they can't earn much unless people send and receive many transactions.

NotATether

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Phoenix is also mobile-only.

I get that people are going to be tipping more with their phones, but why are the vast majority of lightning wallets either mobile apps or browser extensions?

Is there no incentive to make desktop applications for it like there is for Nostr?

Although having said that, most lightning wallets are centralized so I guess that doesn't really matter.

internetional

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 07, 2023, 06:03:35 AM

I still have a few open channels in Phoenix Wallet (created years ago, when on-chain fees were much lower).
Those channels are almost empty, but have receiving liquidity. There's no point for Phoenix Wallet to close them, as it would only cost them transaction fees.

A closure of such channels may make sense for Phoenix. I guess, many Phoenix users have given up using their wallets with zero balance. And now Phoenix should have a lot of outbound liquidity in such channels. But Phoenix cannot use it, because other sides of all those channels are “leaves” of the LN, so they don’t route transfers. The further, the more Phoenix’ money are locked in such channels. There must be a moment when Phoenix cannot afford too lock as much money. At that moment, the channels will be closed.

It’s better for them to close those channels when onchain fees are not too high. But the more popular Bitcoin becomes, the more people want to make transactions. So, the probability of small fees are not very high in the future. Phoenix must decide soon, what to do with such channels.

Kruw

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 07, 2023, 07:25:09 AM

If you don't have a channel yet, you'll need to open at least one.

In Phoenix 2.X you always have only one channel open thanks to splicing. It's a huge upgrade that I can't wait to come to other Lightning wallets.

cygan

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seems to work now. i set the limit to 10k sats for the fees and it works as i imagined - last transaction with fee of 24 satoshis Cool

LoyceV

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Quote from: cygan on December 07, 2023, 07:18:46 AM

how do you know or where can i see if a channel is opened/closed?

Settings > Channel list.

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when i turn this option off, i get a message telling me that the next transaction will fail in any case

If you don't have a channel yet, you'll need to open at least one.

cygan

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 07, 2023, 06:14:04 AM

✂
But, if you don't have enough receiving liquidity, Phoenix will have to open a new channel again.
✂

how do you know or where can i see if a channel is opened/closed?

Quote from: LoyceV on December 07, 2023, 06:14:04 AM

✂
Android on my old phone is too old to update Phoenix Wallet, and I don't want to install more wallets on my regular phone. Just in case, I disabled "Automatic on-the-fly channel creation to avoid high fees if I ever receive a payment. That's why I disabled "Automatic on-the-fly channel creation to avoid high fees" (from Settings).
✂

when i turn this option off, i get a message telling me that the next transaction will fail in any case

LoyceV

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Quote from: cygan on December 07, 2023, 06:11:38 AM

so do i understand correctly that these high fees are only charged for the first transaction that my Phoenix wallet receives and from the second transaction onwards everything is in cents (if my wallet is filled with satoshis)?

As far as I know: yes. See the fees page.
But, if you don't have enough receiving liquidity, Phoenix will have to open a new channel again.

Android on my old phone is too old to update Phoenix Wallet, and I don't want to install more wallets on my regular phone. That's why I disabled "Automatic on-the-fly channel creation to avoid high fees" (from Settings).

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i tried the same thing with another wallet (wos) and it doesn't matter whether it's the first or fifth transaction - the fees were in the cent range...

Wallet of Satoshi is custodial, so it doesn't open (on-chain) channels for you. Phoenix Wallet is non-custodial after opening the channel. That's the difference.
In my experience, custodial LN wallets work easier. Just don't trust them with with large amounts.

cygan

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 07, 2023, 06:03:35 AM

✂
That's true. But on-chain you'll pay that for each transaction, and with LN only for the first transaction (as long as you have enough liquidity).
Or just use a custodial LN wallet (for small amounts), so you don't have any on-chain costs.
✂

so do i understand correctly that these high fees are only charged for the first transaction that my Phoenix wallet receives and from the second transaction onwards everything is in cents (if my wallet is filled with satoshis)?
i tried the same thing with another wallet (wos) and it doesn't matter whether it's the first or fifth transaction - the fees were in the cent range...

LoyceV

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Quote from: cygan on December 07, 2023, 05:53:47 AM

i installed the Phoenix wallet on my android mobile phone yesterday and wanted to receive the very first transaction.
but this is canceled due to the fees i set of max. 5000 sats - the message says that the fee is almost 20k sats and i could change that in my settings Roll Eyes

See:

Quote from: cygan on December 07, 2023, 05:53:47 AM

otherwise i can immediately claim an on-chain transaction

That's true. But on-chain you'll pay that for each transaction, and with LN only for the first transaction (as long as you have enough liquidity).
Or just use a custodial LN wallet (for small amounts), so you don't have any on-chain costs.

I still have a few open channels in Phoenix Wallet (created years ago, when on-chain fees were much lower).
Those channels are almost empty, but have receiving liquidity. ~~There's no point for Phoenix Wallet to close them, as it would only cost them transaction fees.~~ I still have 2 seed phrases from different installations, and I think I have a total of 4 open channels.

Android on my old phone is too old to update Phoenix Wallet, and I don't want to install more wallets on my regular phone.

cygan

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i didn't want to create a new thread for my problem and am now asking my question in this one
i installed the Phoenix wallet on my android mobile phone yesterday and wanted to receive the very first transaction.
but this is canceled due to the fees i set of max. 5000 sats - the message says that the fee is almost 20k sats and i could change that in my settings Roll Eyes

what am i doing wrong or is that really the case? to be honest, i can't imagine it, otherwise i can immediately claim an on-chain transaction

LoyceV

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 04, 2021, 03:32:01 AM

Quote from: LoyceV on April 26, 2021, 03:09:36 AM

I can imagine a future in which for LN users don't open their own channels at all: you just buy LN balance at an exchange, the exchange opens large channels, and you use their channels for buying coffee.
I know some people won't like that level of centralization, and I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but if that's what it takes to reach mass adoption, I can live with it. And if you really want, you can always pay the additional on-chain fees to connect your own node.

If you are buying a LN 'balance you are buying a database entry. If the exchange has many customers and merchants, there would be no reason to use LN, you could simply pay another exchange customer, and the database could be updated.

I wouldn't like the scenario in which everyone relies on the same exchange. If there are (say) 20 large parties offering LN "wallets", 95% of my transactions would be to users who use a different exchange. It may be just a database entry at the exchange I'm using, but they'll need to make an actual LN-transaction to the other party every time I make the payment.
Kinda like BlueWallet does already.

PrimeNumber7

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 26, 2021, 03:09:36 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on April 26, 2021, 02:58:55 AM

I think in the future, it would be more common for channels to be funded via both parties sending coin in the same transaction.

More inputs means higher total transaction fees.

In your situation, there are two transactions, 1) tx from you to ACINQ, and from ACINQ that opens the LN channel. This is at a minimum, two inputs and two outputs, plus additional bytes that are required for each transaction. Two parties sending coin to fund a LN channel in the same transaction would involve a single transaction, and a minimum of one output and two inputs. The net effect is that less block space would be used.

Quote from: LoyceV on April 26, 2021, 03:09:36 AM

I can imagine a future in which for LN users don't open their own channels at all: you just buy LN balance at an exchange, the exchange opens large channels, and you use their channels for buying coffee.
I know some people won't like that level of centralization, and I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but if that's what it takes to reach mass adoption, I can live with it. And if you really want, you can always pay the additional on-chain fees to connect your own node.

If you are buying a LN 'balance you are buying a database entry. If the exchange has many customers and merchants, there would be no reason to use LN, you could simply pay another exchange customer, and the database could be updated.

LoyceV

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 26, 2021, 03:09:36 AM

The fee is 0.1%, with a 1000 sat minimum. I paid 1000 sat, ACINQ paid almost double that amount to open the channel.

There's an update from Phoenix Wallet:

Quote

In the short term we are raising fees to 1% for channel creation. It better reflects current network conditions.

Longer term, we plan to make those fees dynamic to take advantage of low fees periods. In the meantime, we will be more conservative and focus on sustainability.

Mind the minimum fee:

Quote

1% of the amount received, with a 3000 sat minimum fee. This covers the cost of opening a channel. The amount received must be at least 10 000 sat.

This makes sense, it's obvious they were paying more for opening channels than they earned from it.

Depositing 0.01 BTC into Phoenix Wallet will now get you 0.0099 BTC in a LN channel. That's about $5.60 fee on a $560 channel. If you make many payments, it's still a lot cheaper than on-chain transactions.

Pmalek

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 23, 2021, 06:32:16 AM

Quote from: Pmalek on April 23, 2021, 04:35:37 AM

Do you feel like that opens the door for scams?

If ACINQ wanted to scam me, they would have done it by now.

I see now where my logic failed me. I overlooked your post from April 19 where you wrote that the on-chain transaction of 13 sat/vByte sent to your Phoenix Wallet was confirmed. After that, ACINQ opened the channel. I thought that the channel was opened before your transactions to Phoenix Wallet got confirmed. That's why I asked about the possibility to scam someone over the LN by double-spending the initial deposit to Phoenix Wallet before it confirms.

Now it's all clear, thanks!

LoyceV

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on April 26, 2021, 02:58:55 AM

I assume they are taking the fee out of your channel balance, so it will be beneficial for you to have the fee they pay on the funding transaction be lower.

The fee is 0.1%, with a 1000 sat minimum. I paid 1000 sat, ACINQ paid almost double that amount to open the channel.

Quote

I think in the future, it would be more common for channels to be funded via both parties sending coin in the same transaction.

More inputs means higher total transaction fees. I can imagine a future in which for LN users don't open their own channels at all: you just buy LN balance at an exchange, the exchange opens large channels, and you use their channels for buying coffee.
I know some people won't like that level of centralization, and I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but if that's what it takes to reach mass adoption, I can live with it. And if you really want, you can always pay the additional on-chain fees to connect your own node.

I saw estimates of exchanges holding a couple hundred billion dollars worth of crypto. Adding a few bucks for custodial coffee payments shouldn't be a problem.

PrimeNumber7

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Quote from: LoyceV on April 26, 2021, 02:29:59 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on April 26, 2021, 01:11:54 AM

If I am understanding correctly, you sent coin to ACINQ, and upon this transaction confirming, they opened a LN channel with you that involves you having outbound capacity in the amount of the coin you sent (less any fees they are charging you), and possibly some inbound capacity for you.

All correct!

Quote

If this is true, there is no risk to ACINQ because your "deposit" has already confirmed. Allowing a LN transaction to be processed when the opening transaction is unconfirmed is opening up risk to the counterparty to the channel only, and no one else in the LN network. This is probably a setting that should be set to "disable" by default though.

At first, I was very disappointed they opened a channel with such a low fee.
When I found out I could just use the channel, I was pleasantly surprised. Even though it's more or less custodial until the channel got confirmed, from a user's perspective it's very convenient.

If you are sending them coin in advance, you are giving them custody of your coin before they open a LN channel. This is true regardless of if they open a channel with a fee of 1 sat/vByte, or 10000 sat/vByte. I assume they are taking the fee out of your channel balance, so it will be beneficial for you to have the fee they pay on the funding transaction be lower.

I think in the future, it would be more common for channels to be funded via both parties sending coin in the same transaction.

LoyceV

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on April 26, 2021, 01:11:54 AM

If I am understanding correctly, you sent coin to ACINQ, and upon this transaction confirming, they opened a LN channel with you that involves you having outbound capacity in the amount of the coin you sent (less any fees they are charging you), and possibly some inbound capacity for you.

All correct!

Quote

If this is true, there is no risk to ACINQ because your "deposit" has already confirmed. Allowing a LN transaction to be processed when the opening transaction is unconfirmed is opening up risk to the counterparty to the channel only, and no one else in the LN network. This is probably a setting that should be set to "disable" by default though.

At first, I was very disappointed they opened a channel with such a low fee.
When I found out I could just use the channel, I was pleasantly surprised. Even though it's more or less custodial until the channel got confirmed, from a user's perspective it's very convenient.

On PhoenixWallet's Telegram channel, I read they disallowed opening channels for new users for a while. High on-chain fees don't really work with chain-related LN actions.

Topic: Opinions on Phoenix Wallet? (Read 1467 times)