Topic: [SKY] Skycoin Launch Announcement - page 160. (Read 381579 times)

Realy?multiple IPOs,

You in?

To be perfectly honest, most of these speculators want most of the coins at the cheapest price possible.

That rant against 5 years is complete B.S.    What he's saying is,  all he cares is a pump and dump and he hopes to get all the cheap coins on day one.

thanks for the update.

They will change the current ipo plan or fail. Its that simple. So I am going to keep checking back, and cross my fingers.

The next best thing is someone will copy their idea. In this place that is the only thing that is guaranteed. It wont take long. If they dont change the ipo plan soon I'm just going to go with the copy that has an IPO plan that has something in it for the investor. Sad that that they did all this work and it looks like some other guys will make it happen. SAD.

I just don't understand how they can be so smart technology wise, and have just a blank space of air in the other part of their brain.

Still crossing my fingers they come to their senses. They deserve to have this idea work for them, and not some other guys that were just willing to spread the wealth, but not come up with this ingenious coin themselves.

Well said though. Interesting project.

TL;NR. Watching.

>How does MaidSafe's technology come into play here? It seems like it can complement Skycoin really well.

Yes. We are working on many things that have similar functionality to Maidsafe. If you read about Protoshares, MaidSafe and Skycoin there is a common thread. There are actually hundreds of these related projects going on right now, but Protoshares, Skycoin and MaidSafe are the coin based ones.

https://github.com/redecentralize/alternative-internet

Skycoin is a building an infrastructure for applications. We are building an API for communication, identity and the automatic exchange of services and resources for coins. The original Skycoin was actually a distributed DropBox like MaidSafe has. This is called "Agoric Computing" and its a thirty year old idea. Its not new, but has become popular again recently. Maidsafe has been around for seven years and a lot of companies have played with this, but no one has been successful at selling agoric computing. All the technology people think its cool, but its a technology that does not necessarily solve problems that make people want to use it.

We had our distributed file system  working and components of it are still in the github.

Skycoin originally had mining but added a distributed time stamping system to prevent 51% attacks, then we realized we didnt need mining for consensus anymore. Then we decided "we are going to be the first coin that is 51% attack proof, more secure than Bitcoin and without miners". That added a lot of work to the project. Then we had the wallet team come on and they wanted to build the best wallet that existed and they wanted a web wallet so they could use HTML and Javascript to make it look good, but they also wanted it locally hosted for security. So we had to embeds a web browser in a window and that took a while.

Then people on the cjdns project convinced us to do a meshnet. The meshnet was already very similar in design to the darknet we designed for the distributed file system. That created a massive amount of work.  Then we had to implement a new coin blockchain, which required months of security audits, refactoring and checking for potential hash collisions. The coin itself is only a few thousand lines of code, but every line has to be bulletproof and triple checked.

Then we had the coin working. The blockchain had been running for a few months, but I was not happy with the networking protocol. I started refactoring the networking and that turned into Skywire. It started with the blob replicator, which used a cryptographic variant of the Gossip protocol. I realized that a lot of things were Blob data and used blob replication and that the distributed metadata store for our distributed file system could be implemented on the blob replicator.  That means I could throw out 12,000 lines of code, pull in Skywire library and the whole application was 400 lines and it did the same thing.

The Skycoin distributed file system was called cFTP for cloud file transfer protocol. In traditional FTP, the directory information for files is on the FTP server and the files themselves come from the FTP server. In cFTP the directory information is in the cloud and the files are in the cloud. The directory information is distributed using a distributed metadata library called "Ether" and files could be looked up by hash and the system was like Bitorrent. It would distribute your files across all your computers.  If you drop a file in your folder on your desktop, the file would appear in your media computer attached to the television. The file would look like a normal file, but if the media player started playing it, the file would stream from the desktop over the network to the media player and media player would cache a copy. If you didnt have a copy of the file on the network, it would find someone on the internet who had the file and start downloading it from them. The directory information and the files contents were now separate.

The distributed metadata library is called "Ether" and it is revolutionary. It is as disruptive as the invention of the blockchain data structure. Blockchains are ordered, Blobs are not ordered. So Ether is like an unordered version of a blockchain.

This will be reimplemented someday, but it was decided that the meshnet was the most important thing. We wanted a meshnet and tried a bunch of them and they sucked. They were poorly designed, they were difficult to setup, there was no reason for people to run a node, they did not protect you from lawsuits and liability if the mesh traffic is going through your IP address. We designed a meshnet that did not suck.

When I was finishing up the coin networking, I realized that I needed to sync multiple blockchains for Obelisk (each Obelisk node is running its own personal blockchain, described in whitepaper). So I developed the services infrastructure. You run one daemon and then associate network services with the daemon. Now blob replication, block chain downloads, Ether and the darknet router were just "services". The Skywire library makes developing p2p applications very easy. We now had an application infrastructure that 3rd parties could extend.

Right now, peers are IP addresses. In the future its a very small step to use a Skycoin address (a public key hash) as the "address" of the node. Each node will have an address and you can send a message to the address and the node will receive them. You can put a Skycoin node on your car and drive down the street and as it is connecting and disconnecting from different wifi hotspots, the IP address will change, the networks its connected through will change, but the node will have the same address. It will still be receiving packets as it moves across networks. With IP addresses, connections reset as you change networks. They dont let you just move to the next network if a connection drops.

This means you can take your laptop and move it anywhere and it will have the same address. The address does not change based upon what network you are connected to, the address is associated with the laptop. You can unplug stuff and move it around and always be able to connect to it.

We also did source routing, which means that the host controls the routing path. This means you choose how your packets are routed, not the routers. If you are playing a video game, you want the low latency route and if you are downloading something you want highest bandwidth. Different applications can use different routing in Skywire. The latency is actually lower than latency for TCP/IP because ISPs use "hot potato" routing. There are gaming services that lower your latency by tunneling your traffic through a VPN tunnel to avoid your ISP's hot potato routing. The Skywire meshnet is essentially the same, but for free.

Since we have source routing, if you run a Skycoin public wifi node, no one can trace the traffic running through that node back to you. You cant be sued for someone downloading music on your wifi node. You dont know the destination, the person receiving the data does not know the source and you cant read the contents because its encrypted and everyone is being paid coins for the traffic. If someone DDoS attacks you, they are paying you coins for the bandwidth for the DDoS attack.

There is no reason why an app cannot be built, that rents out storage space on your computer to other people for coins. There are dozens of dropbox clones on github and you just have to add coins. Many of them are federated and allow you to choose a storage provider. You just have to add coins. Its not difficult.

In some sense, coins are becoming like badges. There was a fad a few years ago where people would take anything and try to add badges to it. "I am going to make Groupon, but with badges". Coins are becoming like that. The difference is that if you have a coin, you are liquid from day one. You have a public market. Its like companies being publicly traded as penny stocks from the day they are incorporated, before they have done anything. Some coins are even trading, before they have a coin. MaidSafe is using colorcoins on the Bitcoin blockchain, to sell MaidCoin before the coin exists or anyone knows how it will work. Protoshares is a coin for a coin that doesnt exist yet, but he probably should have used Colorcoins and cut out the miners. So will see an increasing role for colorcoins for coin presales.

Another thing I noticed. MaidSafe is accepting Mastercoin. Mastercoin has done very well. Mastercoin had a massive IPO and the price jumped after the IPO. Everyone made a ton of money. However, Mastercoin is extremely thinly traded. Mastercoin did not have any new users after the IPO, so there was no one to buy out the people who invested in the IPO. No one can sell their Mastercoins without tanking the price. However, now they can convert their Mastercoins into MaidCoins in the MaidSafe IPO.

So I like MaidSafe as an idea. I like messaging, distributed storage and identity. However, some questions such as "Who is MaidSafe aimed at?", "Who will use MaidSafe?", "How will it get users?", "How are SafeCoins secure if they dont use mining?", "What prevents the creations of infinite safe coins?", "Why would people using MafeSafe drive up the price?". I would have designed MaidSafe's economy a bit differently too. People are mining altcoins to sell them for Bitcoins. What if people run MaidSafe to get SafeCoins to sell them for Bitcoins. Someone buys SafeCoins with Bitcoin to buy storage space on MaidSafe and then someone else provides the space and sells the SafeCoins for Bitcoin. There is no net capital inflow into SafeCoin. The price has not changed.

that's really good.. and can surpass bitcoins

  not sure what you're talking about mate you sound angry though, cheer up it might not happen

Ten percent of all safecoins (429,496,729) will be made available during the crowd-sale, with a value of 17,000 safecoins per Bitcoin. Also, there are additional bonuses depending on how early you invest.

So 100%, would be roughly at least 250,000 bitcoin valuation (but it is still hard to say, because you don't exactly get 17000 safecoins per Bitcoin, as per MaidShare employer, and you can also invest Mastercoin there too). It's sad that a person who has created a thread about MaidSafe failed to straighten up the calculation for those that do not know about MaidSafe and how many coins they are releasing for the IPO, but is quick to bash about the "blatant lies".

Leave emotions and politics out of it.

I don't think he realizes if he tells blatant lies that are easily checked he loses credibility. It's a bit sad the way this threads ended up I feel stupid for watching it for so long.

why is this coin so expensive?

Isn't 429 496 729 / 17 000 == 25260 bitcoin?
Then, where does the 350 000 Bitcoin come from?

I can't pay so much money to anonymous.
It isn't enough to merely use words as a way of conveying facts.
It's too danger.

Then how do you think? I know the meaning of what dev said. Keeping 99% of coins doesn't mean owing them. But there are too many scam. And how to prevent bad things happen? Do you konw who are they?

Development Update:

- The new developers for the meshnet are setup and working now.
- The source routing implementation is almost done.
- wifi controller library is working and just needs adhoc mode support and some bug fixes. https://github.com/skycoin/darknet/commit/21e08943e753d985d3f30f5dee1022f027831c3d
- Last gui changes to wallet are being made. One of the coin developers who was on vacation for past two weeks is coming back to project.
- First draft the of Obelisk white paper is done. Will be on Github soon.

Maidcoin IPO Update:

Maidsafe is IPOing 429,496,729 coins (10% of total coins) at 17,000 Maidcoins per Bitcoin.
25,264 Bitcoins for 10%, for a 250,000 Bitcoin (125 million dollar) valuation.
The IPO will last 30 days or until 10% of the Maidcoins have been sold. The developers will keep the other 90%.

We are looking at the Maidsafe IPO closely and will use it to determine if the Skycoin IPO needs to be changed. Our understanding is that generally people who bought into the IPO early, will never sell for less than they bought for. This means that coin price can only go up from the IPO.

We also believe that Maidsafe has an incentive to buy back coins to provide a price floor, if the price goes below the IPO starting price.

However, Maidsafe is offering a 40% discount for people buying into the IPO in the first week. This means you can buy in early, then sell at the later IPO price and make a profit. We think the post-IPO price might end up being between the starting and ending IPO price. However after the IPO, there is a tendency for a media storm and the coin to pop.

We are watching Maidcoin very closely.

Skycoin IPO:

Skycoin will be IPOing 1% of coins for $50,000 or 100 Bitcoins, to create liquidity and allow exchanges to begin trading Skycoin.
- they may be a series of larger IPOs later
- they may be a gradual disbursement of coins onto the market
- there will be disbursement to people people building out the mesh network as a subsidy and incentive

We want to disburse the majority of the coins, but want to do so gradually and without pushing down price or being irresponsible.
 
Coin distribution
- should be fair
- should be responsible and not negatively impact price.
- should emphasize incentives, achieving market share and community members over speculators
- should taper. The rate of distribution should decrease over time
- should spread coins among as many people as possible
- the rate coins going on to the market should decrease faster than the growth in the user base. Coins should become relatively rarer over time.

Fairness means:
- coin distribution policy should be open and discussed
- no one should received coins at below market price in backdoor deals
- as much information as possible should be given to allow users to verify the fairness of distribution
- This might mean that we place undistributed coins in announced addressed addresses, so that their movement can be verified publicly.

This is our current understanding.

Skycoin Economic Policy:
- If executed properly, Skycoin offers the prospect of a larger percentage of the Skycoin in the hands of users and community members instead of miners and speculators, compared to alternative distribution strategies.
- coins should not be given out, except for actions that are costly or which increase the equity of all coin holders
- If $1 in marketing results in a $5 increase in coin market cap, we are not spending enough on marketing
- If a mesh network node cost $300 to deploy and we can verify it, a $200 Skycoin bonus to the node operator would be acceptable because the hardware purchase increases the value of the network, promotes adaption, increases the value of all Skycoins and is "proof of burn". Community participants are much less likely to dump coins than speculators.
- A Skycoin with a 2 billion dollar marketcap, is a Skycoin that can subsidize 20 million Skycoin users to deploy 600 million dollars in Skycoin nodes. The higher the price goes, the more users the subsidy can encourage to build nodes. 1,000,000 million users creates more value for the network than 10,000 users. A smaller initial distribution (1% vs 30% or 90%) leaves more room for larger more impactful, later distributions.
- Coin in the hands of community members and participants are much more valuable to the network than coins in the hands of speculators.
- We should encourage and support ownership by developers, active community members and network operators and discourage ownership by speculators.
- A speculator who buys 1,000 Bitcoin worth of Skycoin and sits on it passively, does not contribute anything to the long term value of the Skycoin network.
- Skycoin developers sitting on 10 million in Bitcoin that cannot be spent, will not increase the value of Skycoin.
- the official Skycoin policy is the protection and growth of the equity of all coin holders.

Should Skycoin Developers Be Public and Should Skycoin have a Foundation:
- The Bitcoin foundation is a complete failure and nothing good has come of it. Every high ranking member of the Bitcoin Foundation has outstanding legal troubles and is therefore under the threat of adverse influence. "If you want to stay out of jail for running an exchange without an MTA license, you will do what we say". Evaluated on its merits, the Bitcoin Foundation has not advanced any projects that have significantly advanced or improved Bitcoin in any way. Every improvement to Bitcoin has come from outside of the foundation.
- The public identities of the Bitcoin developers have decreased Bitcoin security and created a target list for hackers and governments. The processes and people that need to be influenced to infiltrate, destroy or discredit Bitcoin are now in the open.


- An additional function and primary purpose of the Bitcoin foundation, is as a venue for networking between influential people in the Bitcoin community, Bitcoin developers and the CEOs of Bitcoin companies. These connections allow the extension of favors, influence, privileges and insider information. Insiders close to Mark Karpeles had advanced warning that MtGox had lost Bitcoin and was considering going into receivership. They were able withdraw coins or trade before the announcement. While the public was constantly reassured that nothing was wrong, despite the information the CEO of MtGox knew privately and had confided with people with privileged access to Karpeles.
- A Skycoin foundation and publicly identified developers would increase the prestige, media profile and networking opportunities of the Skycoin developers, but would bias the developers towards influence by the power network. If a decision would benefit the users but negatively affect a large company or interest in the power network, the foundation would create bias toward the concerns of the interest.
- The founder of Ripple left the company and all the insiders knew, but this information was not communicated to the user base by Ripple Labs and was not known to the public for seven months after he jumped ship. The news was broken in Wired, but was widely known by insiders. There is not a level playing field.
- Ripple sold XRP to investors at below market price, in unannounced, secret deals. These deals were known by privileged people.  Individuals at Ripple Labs were forced to quietly and reluctantly acknowledge the deals only after their existence was leaked.
- The Skycoin developers must be embedded and represented in the power network, but not be influenced by it. There is reoccurring temptation to compromise moral principals for social advantage. Public identity and the networking advantages afforded by a foundation make the temptations more numerous and immediate.

Public identities for developers subject Skycoin to unnecessarily legal harassment. The Megaupload lawsuit demonstrates that governments will put protecting powerful economic interests ahead of due process and the law. Comcast and Time Warner have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to crush municipal broadband at the state and federal level. These companies exercise powerful influence over municipalities and foster political connections they use to exclude competitors. They buy nominees to the FCC, buy court systems through political patronage and have even corrupted congressional staffers to reclassify themselves as except from the common carrier access rules. Whitespace networking equipment that would threaten their monopoly over internet service has consistently been sabotaged before testing while in FCC custody.

They have a record of using frivolous lawsuits to bankrupt smaller competing ISPs offering faster, cheaper, internet service.  Mesh networking is an inevitable threat to their business model and a threat these companies must address.  They are likely to respond by pushing neutered mesh standards that maintain their power, while using patents, regulation and legal threats to kill off viable competitors. If Skycoin succeeds, the developers would in severe legal and possibly physical danger. I dont even have to mention what is happening to the popcorn time developers now.

Bitcoin is a theoretical, remote and abstract threat to banks and the existing financial order. Bitcoin exists within the existing system as just another commodity. Bitcoin is now seen as no more a threat to the system than gold (which is tolerated).

Skycoin and mesh networking is an inevitable technology that is ready and could become dominate within a much shorter time frame. Anyone working on a viable mesh networking project should be prepared for the same legal response that competing ISPs and municipal broadband have faced. These companies have already begun filing patents and buying up mesh networking patents and deploying their own wifi hotspot networks. There is danger that we get a mesh network, but that its owned and operated by Comcast/Time Warner.

Skycoin Discussion:
- Skycoin must be much more aggressive and proactive than Bitcoin. Bitcoin development has been extremely conservative. Bitcoin has not changed substantially or evolved significantly beyond what it was at launch five years ago. The usability of Bitcoin is still horrible, the security is still horrible, the existential threats remain. The Skycoin should not and cannot allow itself the level of complacency Bitcoin has shown for these issues.  Issues such as signature malleability were known for years, had simple fixes and were left unresolved. Issues such as hash collisions and some forms of signature malleability fundamentally could not be resolved without a blockchain reset, which there was no political will for.
- In the long term, we believe that Bitcoin was, as Satoshi said, an experiment. Bitcoin succeeded in sparking the cryptocurrency movement and setting in motion this chain of events. Bitcoin has changed the world forever and will we not go back. However it is becoming increasingly clear that Bitcoin will not be the final or best cryptocurrency.
- Bitcoin is only five years old and its market cap is only 6 billion dollars. We believe that a successful, widely adapted cryptocurrency standard twenty years from now will have a market capitalization north of 200 billion dollars. We believe that crytocurrencies are still in their baby stages.
- We do not believe the absolute number of coins matters, as much as their scarcity. The balance of money flowing in to a coin (influx of capital) and money flowing out (outflux of capital) determine coin price. During hype a coin can receive a large influx of capital and large market cap, but as the reality sets in, fewer new people will buy into the coin. The liquidity of the coin will become low and existing stakeholders will be unable to cash out without tanking the price (Ripple and Mastercoin). If a coin experiences constant user, growth, increasing adaption and its potential is substantiated (Bitcoin), it will receive an ever increasing valuation and influx of new new users and investment and will continue to grow. The long term average growth rate will track the user base growth. The coin will continue to grow until user growth stops or until the addressable market has been saturated or until competitors emerge which begin to steal market share.
- There will be several cycles of growth and collapse as old coins die to new competitors.
- Bitcoin may be the first and currently most popular cryptocurrency, but for an increasing number of people, it was a gateway drug into a larger cryptocurrency ecosystem.
- Users of Bitcoin, once educated are likely to adapt other currencies. They will choose the currencies they use based upon liquidity, convenience, ease of use, security, price stability and brand. It cannot be ruled out that Bitcoin is merely creating a market of savvy, cryptocurrency proficient users for its successor.
- Coins are in competition with each other. There will be thousand of coins. The coins with the best management, development team, vision, reputation and capacity for innovation have the best long term prospects. Therefore building up development capacity and community is essential the long term success of the project.
- The current incentive for coin developers, is to launch a new coin, pump and dump the coin for Bitcoin and then repeat the cycle. Skycoin must not fall into this cycle and must be focused on the long term.  A huge upfront IPO encourages developers to take the coins and run. Successful coins and communities such as Bitcoin and Dogecoin are highly focused on long term growth and adaption, not merely making as much money as possible in a pump and dump.

New Development Bounty:

There is a new development bounty for a golang library for saving blocks to disc. It should
- keep track of when block was first seen
- treat blocks as series of bytes, with a sequence number (incremented every block depth), a hash (current block hash) and previous block hash (hash of parent block)
- the library should use callbacks so that it can support different blockchains and does not need to import the skycoin block struct specifically
- assumes blocks have a ToBytes() method that returns the byte serialization of a block object
- should keep an index of where each block is on disc, so that blocks can be pulled out quickly
- we want to be able to pull out blocks by hash and also find children of block (blocks who have the block as a parent)

We will write a basic blockchain storage library and someone can come in and fix it. We have a working implementation, but its integrated tightly with the skycoin repo and we need it as a library. Our current implementation reads the whole blockchain file to ram and keep it there and when saving it saves the whole array of blocks over again. It cannot just write one block to disc or read one block from disc. It will work until the blockchain is a few GB in size.

Well, the dev's are not keeping 99% of the coin to themselves. If you do, please reread what they wrote.

This is not just a coin, they are trying to also create a distributed wireless mesh network that fights against SOPA, Time Warner, etc.

They will give bounties for free, for the people that successfully implements the networks. Also further bounties for development, I guess they can just in detail state exactly how it's going to be.

If the developers do keep 99% of the coin, it would be worthless. No one would buy that shit. No community will be created.

They are obviously going to distribute the remaining 99%, so please reread their previous posts slowly.

...Great looking forward to it.

C'mon, give'em a rest. I bet none of you ever tryed to do something THIS big. I also not fancy about the idea of devs keeping 99% of coins, but first of all they probably know better and second, IPO hasn't yet been started and they might reconsider IPO model. Maybe not once. Anyhow most of you look like bunch of trolls.