Small time miners - What do you do when ASICs hit and you don't upgrade?

BitCoiner2012

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Quote from: unicron on November 04, 2012, 12:32:20 AM

Quote from: Meatball on October 27, 2012, 04:43:57 PM

Most currency is created due to the fact that people are already exchanging goods and services and they need a simpler way to do that beyond bartering and the like.

I've no quibbles with your other points, but this nit is worth picking. I recently read a book called "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" which contradicts the usual dogma that money arose to solve the problem of barter. Here is the author's discussion of that point in depth.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/09/david-graeber-on-the-invention-of-money-%E2%80%93-notes-on-sex-adventure-monomaniacal-sociopathy-and-the-true-function-of-economics.html

Great little read. A couple excellent comments too. May look into the book - I enjoy most the topic of economics to any new understanding.

Odi

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Quote from: unicron on November 04, 2012, 12:32:20 AM

I recently read a book called "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" which contradicts the usual dogma that money arose to solve the problem of barter. Here is the author's discussion of that point in depth.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/09/david-graeber-on-the-invention-of-money-%E2%80%93-notes-on-sex-adventure-monomaniacal-sociopathy-and-the-true-function-of-economics.html

That was an interesting read, thanks! I wish I had time to read the entire book, but for now the blog sure put some different perspective on things for me. So really, it shouldn't be called bitcoin, it should be called bitgold.

001sonkit

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Casper - A failed entrepenuer who looks like Zhou

VanityKey Miner/LTC

Jack1Rip1BurnIt

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Trust me, these default swaps will limit the risks

Quote from: fcmatt on October 28, 2012, 06:04:22 PM

Hm. That is great and all until someone actually wants to use the play money for something real.. Like buying property, durable goods, etc.. Then you are right back in the problem world of somehow converting to fiat. Good fucking luck when you find out a 100,000 btc sale just crashed the markets and you get much less in fiat then you thought you would....

Look, you've got to understand that right now we are in the early "early adopter" stage. I do not disagree with you one bit that the market would make a huge swing off of just one large sale that you spoke of...at least for the time being. Let some years pass by (4, 5, maybe as much as 10) and you will find that moving large sums of money is happening quite often with little effect overall on the price. Right now you have the chance to capitalize on these huge swings. Just imagine that the regular price of a bitcoin is worth $340 American dollars. Huge sales cause the price to plummet to $310 and people get excited and begin to jump on that potential to make about 10% when the price levels off in a few days. These same people would suck yo *&$# if you let them buy some BTC at $9 and some change. Just sayin'

unicron

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Quote from: Meatball on October 27, 2012, 04:43:57 PM

Most currency is created due to the fact that people are already exchanging goods and services and they need a simpler way to do that beyond bartering and the like.

I've no quibbles with your other points, but this nit is worth picking. I recently read a book called "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" which contradicts the usual dogma that money arose to solve the problem of barter. Here is the author's discussion of that point in depth.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/09/david-graeber-on-the-invention-of-money-%E2%80%93-notes-on-sex-adventure-monomaniacal-sociopathy-and-the-true-function-of-economics.html

BitCoiner2012

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Quote from: Meatball on October 29, 2012, 06:53:01 PM

Quote from: BitCoiner2012 on October 29, 2012, 03:16:01 PM

I agree with this man. The very liquidity of BTC nature allows some inherent value to me. I can move money anywhere in almost any fraction in almost any time. Now from my phone, from the net, from home.. I can trade and move money cheaply or freely. I am opening a physical general store within a month or so and I plan to accept BTC for any good in my store assuming no legal complications (I'd also like to accept silver), that's beer, tobacco, general convenience goods, glass, horse/cow feed/corn, etc. So while an offline merchant may not receive much BTC.. I am planning to offer and advertise just like VISA on door/counter, etc.

Speaking of, what kind of online services or stores would be good for BTCers but don't currently exist? All I see is a sea of BTC wanting to be spent.

Yeah, but the problem is the BTC market is still prone to wild swings on big exchanges. If someone walked into your local Bank, withdrew a million dollars and then promptly sent that off to his aunt who spent it on cars and booze, it would have no impact on the dollar bills sitting in my wallet. Yet, if someone does that to BTC, all the BTC I have sitting in my wallet could easily be worth a lot less, or even a lot more. Those wild swings are what are going to scare off most legit vendors.

For the time being I find the volatility of this market exciting, profitable, yet refreshing and allure odstability to me. Entirely my own I admit, however I plan to go wide open, I already will accept btc for anything in life. I plan to offer what I can from my store online for btcers. Also, market will stabilize in terms of volatility as it becomes more accepted. I don't doubt this will happen in time.

Meatball

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Quote from: BitCoiner2012 on October 29, 2012, 03:16:01 PM

I agree with this man. The very liquidity of BTC nature allows some inherent value to me. I can move money anywhere in almost any fraction in almost any time. Now from my phone, from the net, from home.. I can trade and move money cheaply or freely. I am opening a physical general store within a month or so and I plan to accept BTC for any good in my store assuming no legal complications (I'd also like to accept silver), that's beer, tobacco, general convenience goods, glass, horse/cow feed/corn, etc. So while an offline merchant may not receive much BTC.. I am planning to offer and advertise just like VISA on door/counter, etc.

Speaking of, what kind of online services or stores would be good for BTCers but don't currently exist? All I see is a sea of BTC wanting to be spent.

Yeah, but the problem is the BTC market is still prone to wild swings on big exchanges. If someone walked into your local Bank, withdrew a million dollars and then promptly sent that off to his aunt who spent it on cars and booze, it would have no impact on the dollar bills sitting in my wallet. Yet, if someone does that to BTC, all the BTC I have sitting in my wallet could easily be worth a lot less, or even a lot more. Those wild swings are what are going to scare off most legit vendors.

BitCoiner2012

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Quote from: Jack1Rip1BurnIt on October 27, 2012, 04:58:26 PM

Quote from: Meatball on October 27, 2012, 04:43:57 PM

Quote from: Odi on October 27, 2012, 02:30:00 PM

Since bitcoin is still in its infancy, I would say almost everyone. What bitcoin needs today to start on the path to becoming mainstream are merchants who will accept bitcoin. Without merchants, it will never become mainstream.

See, I think that's the problem. Most currency is created due to the fact that people are already exchanging goods and services and they need a simpler way to do that beyond bartering and the like. The problem with BTC is that the currency came first and it's looking for goods and services to be used on, and to be honest, I don't see that getting any better. As others have said, due to the wild fluctuations, what producer of goods or services is going to want to deal with? And while I'm sure BTC will and can always be used for some niche things, I don't know if it'll ever get any traction.

The fact that a single person *anywhere in the world can send an **unlimited sum of money to any person of their choice without any rules or regulations being imposed is probably the most valuable property that bitcoin has. The security of the network is in the construction process as we speak. As more time goes by I believe bitcoin will be considered a powerful form of storing/transferring wealth. Have you looked at what would happen to single bitcoins if the entire economy were to have a value of just 1 billion dollars? Half a trillion?

*internet connection required
**depends on the worth of bitcoins

I agree with this man. The very liquidity of BTC nature allows some inherent value to me. I can move money anywhere in almost any fraction in almost any time. Now from my phone, from the net, from home.. I can trade and move money cheaply or freely. I am opening a physical general store within a month or so and I plan to accept BTC for any good in my store assuming no legal complications (I'd also like to accept silver), that's beer, tobacco, general convenience goods, glass, horse/cow feed/corn, etc. So while an offline merchant may not receive much BTC.. I am planning to offer and advertise just like VISA on door/counter, etc.

Speaking of, what kind of online services or stores would be good for BTCers but don't currently exist? All I see is a sea of BTC wanting to be spent.

Meatball

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Yeah, what fcmatt said. Even if someone really wanted to transfer a huge sum of money, the risk of BTC not being worth what you bought in for when you try to sell is big. So, say you wanted to buy 100K worth of BTC, you'd likely drive the price up a good clip, but the market would get flooded with BTC sellers as people try to cash in on the wave which would stabilize things and bring it back down. Now you go to cash out the 100K and you'll likely have a hard time making your money back.

fcmatt

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Quote from: Jack1Rip1BurnIt on October 27, 2012, 04:58:26 PM

Quote from: Meatball on October 27, 2012, 04:43:57 PM

Quote from: Odi on October 27, 2012, 02:30:00 PM

Since bitcoin is still in its infancy, I would say almost everyone. What bitcoin needs today to start on the path to becoming mainstream are merchants who will accept bitcoin. Without merchants, it will never become mainstream.

See, I think that's the problem. Most currency is created due to the fact that people are already exchanging goods and services and they need a simpler way to do that beyond bartering and the like. The problem with BTC is that the currency came first and it's looking for goods and services to be used on, and to be honest, I don't see that getting any better. As others have said, due to the wild fluctuations, what producer of goods or services is going to want to deal with? And while I'm sure BTC will and can always be used for some niche things, I don't know if it'll ever get any traction.

The fact that a single person *anywhere in the world can send an **unlimited sum of money to any person of their choice without any rules or regulations being imposed is probably the most valuable property that bitcoin has. The security of the network is in the construction process as we speak. As more time goes by I believe bitcoin will be considered a powerful form of storing/transferring wealth. Have you looked at what would happen to single bitcoins if the entire economy were to have a value of just 1 billion dollars? Half a trillion?

*internet connection required
**depends on the worth of bitcoins

Hm. That is great and all until someone actually wants to use the play money for something real.. Like buying property, durable goods, etc.. Then you are right back in the problem world of somehow converting to fiat. Good fucking luck when you find out a 100,000 btc sale just crashed the markets and you get much less in fiat then you thought you would....

Odi

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Quote from: bels on October 27, 2012, 07:55:44 PM

many people start with 0 trust in one another and build up that trust through small transactions...That's a problem for people like me who deal in hardware that sometimes costs in the hundreds of dollars.

I would suggest a third party escrow initially until you build up more trust. Buyers are more wary because of all the scams and the fact that payment is non-reversible.

Quote from: Meatball on October 27, 2012, 04:43:57 PM

Most currency is created due to the fact that people are already exchanging goods and services and they need a simpler way to do that beyond bartering and the like. The problem with BTC is that the currency came first and it's looking for goods and services to be used on, and to be honest, I don't see that getting any better.

I never thought of it that way. We could think that BTC is created to replace most currency, as a currency of the people as opposed to a currency of the government. So instead of looking for goods and services to be used on, BTC should be targeting government regulations or corruption.

Barter -> Precious metals -> Paper money -> Digital money

Quote from: FreeMoney on October 27, 2012, 07:04:39 PM

It is because pretty much everyone who has BTC wants it more than everything else on offer.

This is because people are speculating in BTC. For the speculation to stop, there needs to be many merchants accepting it, making it just as good as fiat. But for there to be many merchants, people need to be willing to spend the current exchange rate and stop speculating. Otherwise, we will only see merchants with low costs, such as service-oriented ones.

bels

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Quote

What is the trust issue? People don't trust you?

Reading the forums, especially the securities forum, has given me the impression that many people start with 0 trust in one another and build up that trust through small transactions. I can't say I necessarily blame them for that stance since there have been so many scams through out the community. That's a problem for people like me who deal in hardware that sometimes costs in the hundreds of dollars.

FreeMoney

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Strength in numbers

Quote from: bels on October 27, 2012, 04:13:17 PM

Quote from: Odi on October 27, 2012, 02:30:00 PM

Since bitcoin is still in its infancy, I would say almost everyone. What bitcoin needs today to start on the path to becoming mainstream are merchants who will accept bitcoin. Without merchants, it will never become mainstream.

This is harder than it sounds. As a business trying to deal in bitcoin I have found it very difficult. The reasons I have found it difficult is people for some reason think that I should be practically giving away the hardware I sell when I do it in bitcoin, who knows why that is but most times people want to offer my 2/3rds what I would sell something in USD for. Also, because there is a big problem with trust transactions have been taking me longer to close.

I'm going to keep trying for now to sell things in bitcoin but I don't know for how much longer because it has started being a bit of a pain in the neck.

It is because pretty much everyone who has BTC wants it more than everything else on offer. You have to be fairly enticing to get it from people who have declined everything else.

What is the trust issue? People don't trust you?

tacotime

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i'll keep mining ltc like i have been for the past 12 months.

Jack1Rip1BurnIt

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Trust me, these default swaps will limit the risks

I agree with you Bels. I believe a big issue that has been noticed the retail business especially in the United States over the past 20 years is the decline of "Mom and Pop" stores. The huge "Walmart" stores basically come in and devour the little guys. I miss the old days of having options of where I do business in my community.

bels

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Quote

The fact that a single person *anywhere in the world can send an **unlimited sum of money to any person of their choice without any rules or regulations being imposed is probably the most valuable property that bitcoin has. The security of the network is in the construction process as we speak. As more time goes by I believe bitcoin will be considered a powerful form of storing/transferring wealth. Have you looked at what would happen to single bitcoins if the entire economy were to have a value of just 1 billion dollars? Half a trillion?

*internet connection required
**depends on the worth of bitcoins

Hey Jack!

I agree 100% and that is why I am pushing forward doing business in bitcoin. I believe a system that allows people to transfer funds and work directly with the people that are sending you the money is the way to go. I believe one of the greatest things about bitcoin is that you can work directly with people instead of the massive layers of a bank or some other rigid organization.

Jack1Rip1BurnIt

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Trust me, these default swaps will limit the risks

Quote from: Meatball on October 27, 2012, 04:43:57 PM

Quote from: Odi on October 27, 2012, 02:30:00 PM

Since bitcoin is still in its infancy, I would say almost everyone. What bitcoin needs today to start on the path to becoming mainstream are merchants who will accept bitcoin. Without merchants, it will never become mainstream.

See, I think that's the problem. Most currency is created due to the fact that people are already exchanging goods and services and they need a simpler way to do that beyond bartering and the like. The problem with BTC is that the currency came first and it's looking for goods and services to be used on, and to be honest, I don't see that getting any better. As others have said, due to the wild fluctuations, what producer of goods or services is going to want to deal with? And while I'm sure BTC will and can always be used for some niche things, I don't know if it'll ever get any traction.

The fact that a single person *anywhere in the world can send an **unlimited sum of money to any person of their choice without any rules or regulations being imposed is probably the most valuable property that bitcoin has. The security of the network is in the construction process as we speak. As more time goes by I believe bitcoin will be considered a powerful form of storing/transferring wealth. Have you looked at what would happen to single bitcoins if the entire economy were to have a value of just 1 billion dollars? Half a trillion?

*internet connection required
**depends on the worth of bitcoins

Meatball

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Quote from: Odi on October 27, 2012, 02:30:00 PM

Since bitcoin is still in its infancy, I would say almost everyone. What bitcoin needs today to start on the path to becoming mainstream are merchants who will accept bitcoin. Without merchants, it will never become mainstream.

See, I think that's the problem. Most currency is created due to the fact that people are already exchanging goods and services and they need a simpler way to do that beyond bartering and the like. The problem with BTC is that the currency came first and it's looking for goods and services to be used on, and to be honest, I don't see that getting any better. As others have said, due to the wild fluctuations, what producer of goods or services is going to want to deal with? And while I'm sure BTC will and can always be used for some niche things, I don't know if it'll ever get any traction.

bels

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Quote from: Odi on October 27, 2012, 02:30:00 PM

Since bitcoin is still in its infancy, I would say almost everyone. What bitcoin needs today to start on the path to becoming mainstream are merchants who will accept bitcoin. Without merchants, it will never become mainstream.

This is harder than it sounds. As a business trying to deal in bitcoin I have found it very difficult. The reasons I have found it difficult is people for some reason think that I should be practically giving away the hardware I sell when I do it in bitcoin, who knows why that is but most times people want to offer my 2/3rds what I would sell something in USD for. Also, because there is a big problem with trust transactions have been taking me longer to close.

I'm going to keep trying for now to sell things in bitcoin but I don't know for how much longer because it has started being a bit of a pain in the neck.

Odi

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Quote from: Meatball on October 27, 2012, 02:30:28 AM

I would love to know the percentage of people involved in BTC that are not:

A) Miners
B) Speculators

What do we think the percentage of people using BTC are actually 'using' BTC.

Since bitcoin is still in its infancy, I would say almost everyone. What bitcoin needs today to start on the path to becoming mainstream are merchants who will accept bitcoin. Without merchants, it will never become mainstream.

But the biggest problem for that is bitcoin to fiat exchange rate. It fluctuates so much that businesses would have to change their prices too often for their liking, so the merchants that accept it now are probably also speculators banking on the fact that the bitcoins they make today are going to be worth a lot more next year. That is why you see service-oriented merchants accepting bitcoins more than product-oriented merchants. Their fiat costs are low, and so they are essentially working for free hoping that in a few years, they would be making 10x what they could have charged in fiat today (speculation merchants).

Topic: Small time miners - What do you do when ASICs hit and you don't upgrade? (Read 10143 times)