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Topic: S.MG - The Ministry of Games. - page 11. (Read 27208 times)

newbie
Activity: 24
Merit: 0
June 13, 2013, 07:14:14 AM
#43
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looking at the marketplace it'd seem the item mall model is coming out victorious. You can't argue with the victor and so S.MG is open to having BTC-based item malls as a revenue model. On the theoretical side, looking at the strengths of BTC and so forth it'd seem RCE is the best fit. S.MG will try to promote that within reason.

I feel like S.MG is unprepared at this moment. Mainly due to the general consensus of the game community in regards to marketplace models, and if you fully represent S.MG, some of the things you've stated are contrary to the reality of the game industry. I don't want to rehash what many individuals smarter than I in the game development community have already analyzed in depth (http://www.bogost.com/blog/cow_clicker_1.shtml), so I'll briefly reference the attached article as needed.

Item malls are secondary revenue streams and have failed plenty of times due to this new developer mantra of "Fuck the user as long as we get paid." The reason games such as Team Fortress 2 have been successful in applying the mall-model is due to a previously developed user base surrounding a quality game. Sacrificing quality for revenue always leads to disaster, one may profit initially, however this always catches up to you (see NASDAQ:ZNGA).

A quote that really hits home:

In recent years, massively multiplayer online games (MMOs) frequently have been accused of doing little more than compelling players to keep playing; amounting to "brain hacks that exploit human psychology in order to make money"

This insults the user, and ostracizes would-be fans from what could be a very successful brand.

You stated:
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The "boxed game" distribution model seems pretty much dead in the way the VHS tape is dead: nobody's arguing with the folk keeping their VHS collections around, but nobody is releasing anything on VHS anymore.

I don't think this metaphor applies to video games in the way the above individuals were pointing out. Of course no one buys VHS's anymore, but they still buy movies. Games are still distributed, Lord British (Richard Garriot), of Ultima Fame still creates old school point and click RPG's alone at his home, and has quite the audience. He has enough of a fan-base, albeit niche, in order to continue his independent developments, likely indefinitely.

At every game meetup you'll find some schmuck preaching about how his new "item mall micro-transaction revenue model" is going to revolutionize the game industry, attempting to recruit developers blindly to work toward a vision that has already been proven a failure by those much smarter than him.

If Mircea is trying to develop a game in house, why not start with a quality game first before moving onto revenue models? With nearly $1 million (USD) raised (or will be raised) from the IPO (extrapolated from the initial 15%), Mircea has more than enough capital to compete with AAA titles.

Taking the metaphor literally, it still doesn't apply. Companies still release products for dead consoles, (games are still being released for the Dreamcast), players still buy them, the cycle continues.

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if people don't know/don't care about that statement then you can hire them. If everybody knows and cares about what me/MP says then you can always find people to hire because you're the only thing so cool on the Internet that EVERYONE knows and cares what you say. Either way....

With your logic you should have Miyamoto, Inafune, and Kojima all lining up to head up the lead design role for S.MG. Alas they are not, I understand the quote was meant to be slightly humorous, however all three of the listed individuals were once novices, and during the infancy of their tenure, they certainly faced failure on a daily basis. At one point in time their names meant nothing.

Most designers and developers worth hiring who have the potential to reach this capacity care most about their artistic vision and how those leading them affect the realized version of that vision.

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More importantly, why is it so important to establish conceptually what is or isn't a game? If people play it, that's all it takes (also known as the "I know it when I see it" legal standard).

That's not entirely true...(I'm referring to the "If people play it, that's all it takes"). In fact many game critics and highly regarded designers would completely disagree. The anecdote of one playing ET for the Atari 2600 is the classic example of something that can be played that is far from a game.

What makes a game? Johan Huizinga answered this long ago before any of us were born: http://www.nideffer.net/classes/270-08/week_01_intro/Huizinga.pdf

This has subsequently become a standard in the game development community, a very good read for anyone claiming to be a game designer.

By not making this distinction you are again insulting the player, the one person you'd best not to insult. The player may never know or care about the distinction, but they will feel it in the game. This distinction allows the designer to create an experience that is fun, rather than depending on "brain hacks." It is subconscious by nature.

The user originally asked:
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Games based on skill? Feeding alpacas on your little farm with carrots that you bought for Bitcoins in a microtransaction and posting every fart of said animals on Facebook, Twitter, Google+, Diaspora, the hidden wiki and Bitmessage?

You replied by insulting the would be player:

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I'm not sure the distinction you propose makes any sense. Is WoW a game of luck or a game of skill by your definition? Sure, skill plays some part, in that if you can't play you can't play.

Come on. Really? The article I referenced at the beginning of this post by Dr. Bogost, analyzes the distinction you are willingly ignoring. I'll start with a quick quote from the attached article by Dr. Bogost:
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Most games require some non-trivial effort to play. Challenge and effort are often cited in definitions of games, as is a tendency toward meaningful interactivity. In these cases, a game's meaning emerges largely from the choices a player makes within a complex system of many interlocking and contingent outcomes, both user- and system-generated.
Of course, there are also games that one plays for relaxation instead of for challenge—zoning out with Solitaire or Bejeweled, for example. In both these cases, the gameplay may not entail the complexity of Go or Civilization, but the results are earnest and, at times, profound. - Dr. Ian Bogost

"Non-trivial effort to play" is the key phrase here. This distinguishes the "brain-hack", from legitimate forms of play.

By ignoring the distinction or an effort to find a distinction, you are not doing your homework, and a disservice to the end user. This goes back to, "I know a game when I see it." I can't implore how critical it is to have well-thought design in the play experience. Nintendo in the 1980's with the release of the Famicom (known as the NES in the west), focused on a fun play experience. A young Miyamoto, was given the task of designing "fun" games, as opposed to trying to drop a flood of games on the market to produce cash flow. Instead, he brought us Donkey Kong, Mario, Metroid, and The Legend of Zelda, all in under a decade. He focused on fundamentals - fundamentals that you seem to be ignoring based on what you are saying.

The user above was clearly comparing Farmville to say a game like Dark Souls.

Farmville's mechanics can be broken down into a very simple "click the cow" action, whereas a game like Dark Souls or Nethack require strategy, tactics, and skill.

Cow Clicker (referenced in the Bogost article), was created as a satire of games like Farmville. You are given a Cow on your Facebook games page, and you are allowed to click it every 8 hours. You can post that you've clicked your cow, trying to get your friends to click it, to gain the in game currency, Mooney, which you use to buy decorated cows. You can pay real cash for all this to go away, bypassing the gameplay entirely. (All of which is described very well by Dr. Bogost in his article). The game became successful, as many people didn't realize it was satire. As well people who wouldn't be caught dead playing Farmville, started playing Cow Clicker because they understood the comedic and satirical nature of the game. All of this was merely an experiment for Bogost, who created a "Cowocalypse" where everyone's cow was raptured...essentially killing the game: he never intended it to be a "real game".

That's all a game like Farmville amounts to, clicking a cow every 8 hours, or paying money to make the tedious gameplay optional. What kind of game is that?

However Harvest Moon, the game Farmville and others are inspired/based on, is a lot more fun than Farmville, came out nearly two decades ago, and still has a cult following. Why? Because the design is superior, and not following the "fuck the player" mantra.

In contrast to Farmville, despite it's difficult nature, people pick up Dark Souls just to submit to the challenge.

Yes, at some point there will be someone who defeats a world champion at Street Fighter by button mashing, but the probability of that happening is very slim.

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For my curiosity, make a list of ten companies where management regularly pissed off developers versus ten companies where management regularly catered to developers and then compare their business results.

This is as easy as going to a list of defunct game companies (like the glorious Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_video_game_companies), and picking your lot.

I'll cater to this curiosity, but 10 of each is a large number as you'll see below.

So I'll compromise, I've interleaved a few companies: successful companies that cater to their developers and companies that piss of their developers and have felt the repercussions in business results.

EA)
Okay so you started us off with EA. They do regularly piss off their developers, and had good business results...until recently. EA was extremely successful over the past decade, but as stated above with Zynga, the "fuck the user (and additionally fuck the developers)" mantra will and is catching up to the company. EA is successful by essentially buying fans through acquisitions: Maxis, Bioware, and Popcap to name a few. This definitely is a valid business tactic, until the developers who made the IP successful jump ship due to frustration (Will Wright as a prime example).

The most recent CEO resigned due to issues involving long term fan base growth, rather than financial reasons.

News: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22801311

Mojang)
The studio that grew from the success of Minecraft. Notch hired staff, including his management (and Officers etc.), based on their ability to contribute to his vision, and making the process "fun". There have been a few hiccups, but one could argue that the company caters to developers on all fronts, (for example: their physical studio setup, lack of deadlines, freedom in adhering to the designer's artistic vision etc.), and maintains profitability vs. company size. (Minecraft has over 10 million purchases as of now if I am not mistaken).

Atari (3 Failed Subsidararies)
Atari's console the 2600 has the exclusive rights to quite possibly the worst "game" on the planet: ET. I don't want to lecture on what has been thoroughly discussed, someone else can beat the dead horse.

This product (ET) is a microcosm of some of the bad decisions Atari took in terms of growing a great development staff. Atari instead focused on making money off of the licensing process, rather than moving quality games. This contributed to the dark age of games, where companies that had no business developing games were getting published by Atari and sent to market. This is the exact reason how ET made it to shelves. ET should have never made it to shelves. (See the legend of the landfill filled with ET cartridges: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial).

Kojima Productions)
This formed from the division of Konami that became "The Metal Gear" team. The original Metal Gear Solid was a hallmark for the video game industry at the turn of the century (the late 90's early 2000's, Metal Gear Solid was released in 1998), and has grown into an extraordinarily successful franchise. Before Kojima had his own dedicated studio, Konami gave him free reign to develop the first Metal Gear Solid. There were barely any restrictions to the allocated resources. This was essentially unheard of during this time period, as few designers were given this degree of freedom with the amount of resources allocated. Metal Gear Solid is nothing but revolutionary, and is the product of not only experimental freedom, but sheer hard work. Many will argue Metal Gear Solid did for video games what Citizen Kane did for film.

Double Fine)
Double Fine is a company with a lot of heart. Tim Schafer's company known for Psychonauts and Brutal Legend, is the epitome of a company that caters to developers and succeeded against the odds. Double Fine was formed by Schafer after gaining experience from being a lead designer at Lucasarts, spearheading projects such as Monkey Island, and Grim Fandango. During the production of Psychonauts the company technically failed: Microsoft who had originally invested in their first game Psychonauts, backed out of the deal completely. Double Fine was left in a state where they were developing a game without a publisher, and had acquired much debt due to Microsoft pulling their original investment deal. The company was so broke due to Microsoft's decision, there was no money to pay anybody. After this news was announced to the staff, Schafer expected everyone to quit, and began talks with his leadership staff of liquidating the company and filing for bankruptcy. The following day, the staff still came into work and continued working on the game. It took several months before Majesco picked up the publishing rights to the title. This was in 2004-2005, since then Double Fine has become successful on it's own accords, and currently maintains profitability.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cc/Tim_Schafer_and_Cookie_Monster.jpg
Tim Schafer negotiates a publishing deal.


Lets switch it up:

Team Bondi)
Team Bondi is kind of up in the air as to their treatment of developers. Some said the loved working there, others state it was hell, putting in 80 hour weeks etc. etc. Either way the company catered to them monetarily, and with technical resources. They eventually made a game with revolutionary facial capturing technology (see L.A. Noire), however this took them a nearly 8 year development period. During this period they burned through cash like the Joker in that movie everyone likes. A simple Google search can easily bring up the problems Team Bondi faced, and their subsequent forced liquidation.

Rockstar)
Rockstar treats their employees like shit at times. Some will claim to work 60+ hour weeks, rarely see their families, and suffer from anxiety disorders, etc. Yet Rockstar consistently produces hit, after hit, after hit. They push the bounds of both the technology, ethics, and mechanics of games. Between the production of GTA: San Andreas and GTA IV, EA bought Criterion Software, the makers of Renderware, which powered the GTA III era of many of Rockstar's games. EA promised to honor a grandfather like clause for all Renderware licensing, but reneged on this promise. This motivated Rockstar's development of RAGE, and licensing Euphoria. Some say EA was trying to sabotage old Renderware contracts in order to cripple older IPs for easier acquisition, but there isn't a lot of substance to these claims. It wouldn't surprise me if evidence surfaces in the future.

Valve)
Valve is kind of an anomaly. Gabe Newell was one of the first 100 employees of Microsoft, making him a millionaire in the 90's. In 1996 he left to form a video game company. Half-Life was made, Steam was invented to play/distribute Counter-Strike 1.6, and the rest is history. Valve is a lot like Google for games, they have intense cashflow and a relatively small staff, so they always maintain a surplus in their budget. This creates an R&D wet dream, and one could argue, with "disposable" cashflow one can afford to pamper the developers.

This doesn't even scratch the surface.

It's in Mr. Popescu's best interest to recruit the best developers/designers possible in regards to game development, and keep them close, perhaps loyal. Maintaining a good relationship with a team that always makes the playoffs is far easier than trying to reconstruct a new team every season.

When I spoke with Mr. Popescu, I asked if a team brought him a game he believed in, would he manage them without compromising their artistic vision, and he said in fewer more concise words, "sure, as long as they have a product."

S.MG has a lot of potential, but it seems you are a bit unprepared at the moment. I hope S.MG takes a more traditional route, and helps to invest in delivering quality products to shelves, and a quality team, rather than trying to invest in profits to impress investors (the EA route). Developers need management, they aren't managers, hence how could they manage themselves? Many designers and developers realize this, but no leadership team wants to be onboard a company funded by dreams.

As stated, I agree wholeheartedly that most Indie developers that fail, or even most studios that fail is due to poor management, hence the inception of S.MG, but I would argue that you have mismatched priorities. You seem to be focused on the revenue plan, and less on the question "will players become fans?"

Many game companies have brought in defacto management, who have good leadership, and failed. Traditional leadership doesn't translate well into the game industry, it never has, it never will. Zynga has been the most recent company to prove that. The good leadership translated into great initial profits, but with the decline of a true fanbase, their business model completely buckled underneath them.

My opinion alone may not matter, but I can guarantee any game developer/designer worth hiring will have the same concerns. People can argue all day, "the underlings don't matter", but in a game company they do.
legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
Quality Printing Services by Federal Reserve Bank
June 13, 2013, 06:29:22 AM
#42
Actually I can't recall the last stock WB promoted. What was it?

ha!

Taken from the BH website, which makes mpex.co look like an art student's final acid trip:

Quote
Dear Reader,

You probably know that I don't make stock recommendations.

Trick question is trick question.

But I guess now you're in a fine position to appreciate the heap of lols that were had over @ MPEx Fortress what with all the countless comments of the website business forum experts collected over the years. Obviously Berkshire doesn't look professional enough, and if only they added CSS....

You are going at it the wrong way. Building a but-ugly web site that makes even blind eyes hurt, will not make you in to a good businessman.
Acting like a arrogant pompous ass, every changes you get, will not make you a good businessman nor give you understanding of finances.
BTW, your blog read like a diary of a sociopath.

Mircea Popescus business plan is directly from Southpark
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   1. Collect Underpants Collect bitcoins
   2.  ?
   3. Profit

He has no idea what happens in #2 or #3 and last one needs a fat question mark because his reporting "standard" (LOL!) is one big joke and has already blown up on investors face (see S.DICE saga https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101902.1740)
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
June 13, 2013, 05:04:38 AM
#41
Actually I can't recall the last stock WB promoted. What was it?

ha!

Taken from the BH website, which makes mpex.co look like an art student's final acid trip:

Quote
Dear Reader,

You probably know that I don't make stock recommendations.

Trick question is trick question.

But I guess now you're in a fine position to appreciate the heap of lols that were had over @ MPEx Fortress what with all the countless comments of the website business forum experts collected over the years. Obviously Berkshire doesn't look professional enough, and if only they added CSS....
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
June 12, 2013, 08:05:15 PM
#40
Is there any known person associated with this company who has any experience in the games industry?

No.


That's all I need to know. Basically this is a gamble, not an informed investment. Q.E.D.


If I invest in a company I'm looking for management skills from the management, not technical skills or detailed knowledge that their underlings should have.  The majority of management skills transfer between ANY two areas of business if the companies are of a smilar size (some skills are needed more in small companies, others more in large ones).

MP is effectively the CEO/MD of MG.  The only skill-set that matters much is whether he has the skills needed to be the person in charge.  EVERYTHING else can be hired.  The decision of whether to invest or not rests solely on whether you:

a) Believe he CAN fill that role well (i.e. is capable).
b) Believe he WILL fill that role well (i.e. will deal fairly and honestly with investors and put in the effort needed).

Whilst it WOULD be a bonus if he already had experience running this type of business that's all it would be - a bonus.  If he's capable of filling the first leadership role then one of his first hires (or consults) will be someone with the industry-specific knowledge.

A large proportion of business failures are ones where the leader has MASSIVE knowledge of (and experience in) the industry/sector.  They fail because their experience and ability isn't in the role of leading a company.  Open two threads promoting 'businesses' on these forums and you'll almost certainly find at least one such - quite probably two (you may have to check back in a few months to be sure about the failure bit).

I'm not making any comment on MP's ability in this post - purely othat you're not even looking at the right thing to measure, so arguing over the measurement itself would be a total waste of time.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1009
June 12, 2013, 07:41:29 PM
#39
Actually I can't recall the last stock WB promoted. What was it?

ha!

Taken from the BH website, which makes mpex.co look like an art student's final acid trip:

Quote
Dear Reader,

You probably know that I don't make stock recommendations.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
June 12, 2013, 06:28:02 PM
#38
Is there any known person associated with this company who has any experience in the games industry?

No.


That's all I need to know. Basically this is a gamble, not an informed investment. Q.E.D.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
June 12, 2013, 06:05:03 PM
#37
Is there any known person associated with this company who has any experience in the games industry?

No.

I wouldn't invest in this share without knowing what they planned to do and who they had hired.

Would you invest in this share if you knew what they planned to do and who they had hired?

But then there are plenty of folks who mindlessly put lots of money in an unknown entity.

Check your assumptions will you. Things exist that you don't know about without being necessarily unknown for that reason.

Even when someone like Warren Buffet promotes a stock you generally lose because he likely promotes stocks which benefit him the most

Actually I can't recall the last stock WB promoted. What was it?
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
June 12, 2013, 05:33:09 PM
#36
tinus42 I think you need to look around :

-There is a better raffle if you're willing to sell your signature space : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/free-100-btc-raffle-by-coinrollit-223474

-http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/kings-bounty-the-legend/ is one exemple of a blog post written by the owner of MPEX and speaking about games.

There are others. Take the time to read and you will understand that there is no "unknown entity"...

Please read thoroughly before speaking about tulip bulbs.

I'm just not CEO-awed like many people are.

Even when someone like Warren Buffet promotes a stock you generally lose because he likely promotes stocks which benefit him the most.

Look at what someone does instead of what someone says.
full member
Activity: 146
Merit: 100
@WiRED
June 12, 2013, 03:04:23 PM
#35
tinus42 I think you need to look around :

-There is a better raffle if you're willing to sell your signature space : https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/free-100-btc-raffle-by-coinrollit-223474

-http://polimedia.us/trilema/2013/kings-bounty-the-legend/ is one exemple of a blog post written by the owner of MPEX and speaking about games.

There are others. Take the time to read and you will understand that there is no "unknown entity"...

Please read thoroughly before speaking about tulip bulbs.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
June 12, 2013, 02:45:24 PM
#34
Is there any known person associated with this company who has any experience in the games industry?

I wouldn't invest in this share without knowing what they planned to do and who they had hired.

But then there are plenty of folks who mindlessly put lots of money in an unknown entity.

Just like there were thousands who paid thousands of guilders to buy the latest tulip bulbs in 1637. Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
June 12, 2013, 12:45:55 PM
#33
8 btc per vote ... I guess that is one way to keep frivolous votes from being posted.  Shocked

I think it could be said that if the result of the vote isn't likely to create at least 8 BTC of value for the company there's absolutely no point in bothering with it at all. It is after all a game company in the sense of making games, not in the sense of being a game.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye
June 12, 2013, 12:37:39 PM
#32
8 btc per vote ... I guess that is one way to keep frivolous votes from being posted.  Shocked
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
June 12, 2013, 11:29:13 AM
#31
That's no way to manage an asset! Where is voting with unsold shares, shipping costs as assets, 'cash kitty' randomly being found, and opinion polls of "do you like the manager"?!

MPEx is not sufficiently technologically advanced yet. Still working on AJAX out of control includes so we too can be hacked into and have random people change the passwords of random accounts like the other "exchanges" in the "business".
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
June 12, 2013, 06:42:04 AM
#30
In the news: the IPO was successfully completed last night. Total of 88,096,605 shares sold (S.MG's current float), with 8,799.0657479 BTC raised (S.MG's current capital).

Full details here.

That's no way to manage an asset! Where is voting with unsold shares, shipping costs as assets, 'cash kitty' randomly being found, and opinion polls of "do you like the manager"?!
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
June 11, 2013, 11:56:13 AM
#29
In the news: the IPO was successfully completed last night. Total of 88,096,605 shares sold (S.MG's current float), with 8,799.0657479 BTC raised (S.MG's current capital).

Full details here.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
June 07, 2013, 09:33:06 PM
#28
So did the IPO sell out already?

Has anybody started a pass-through for this yet?

It's not sold out yet. People have been putting bids in since the asset became available, there was one share sale Tues (something like 15%), and another today (about 70%). The last one will be Monday the 10th.

Oh, I see. I noted that there was no ask, so I thought it was all sold already. Seems to be going pretty fast.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
June 07, 2013, 05:41:56 PM
#27
So did the IPO sell out already?

Has anybody started a pass-through for this yet?

It's not sold out yet. People have been putting bids in since the asset became available, there was one share sale Tues (something like 15%), and another today (about 70%). The last one will be Monday the 10th.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
June 07, 2013, 05:03:59 PM
#26
So did the IPO sell out already?

Has anybody started a pass-through for this yet?
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1094
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
June 06, 2013, 05:34:08 PM
#25
Let's see here.

I meant who is  the IPO's owner and do they have an account on the forums here on bitcointalk if their primary language of communication is English and how will they reply to our questions in English Italian French Chinese etc

If you mean MP, no he doesn't have a forum account. You can probably chat him up on irc. He's fluent in English and a few other languages (perhaps not Chinese). He also keeps a blog, which mostly gets English posts these days (but a lot of articles in Romanian).

I'm the designated forum PR person, which is why that first link in my signature is there.


Gotcha thanks for the info
Maybe put it in the offering if any investors have questions for him directly so they know where to look for him
That or assemble a FAQ sheet and cut down a few questions right off the bat so you can cover the rest and ignore answering old questions or point to a conveniently pointed FAQ Smiley
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
June 06, 2013, 05:23:34 PM
#24
Let's see here.

I meant who is  the IPO's owner and do they have an account on the forums here on bitcointalk if their primary language of communication is English and how will they reply to our questions in English Italian French Chinese etc

If you mean MP, no he doesn't have a forum account. You can probably chat him up on irc. He's fluent in English and a few other languages (perhaps not Chinese). He also keeps a blog, which mostly gets English posts these days (but a lot of articles in Romanian).

I'm the designated forum PR person, which is why that first link in my signature is there.
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