Topic: So, apparently I can't work more than 40 hours a week... (Read 5659 times)
Unions are great. Thanks for my weekends
When I was a few years younger I had a job where I worked 14 hrs/day, 7 days a week for 6 months straight. That's over 2500 hours. I was also a 1099 employee so I didn't get any benefits or overtime. That portion of my life is gone forever 
If one desires to work for sub-standard pay, for as many hours as they like, look no further than being a
Cha-Cha guide... You can earn up to an ENTIRE PENNY per question you answer with a canned shit response and make up to ONE HUNDRED PENNIES before you are fired for incompetence...
You are also required to work at least 28 hours a day before they will consider you worthy enough of a paycheck and will hold your grandparents for ransom if you spell anything wrong. (I hate ChaCha)
Cha-Cha guide... You can earn up to an ENTIRE PENNY per question you answer with a canned shit response and make up to ONE HUNDRED PENNIES before you are fired for incompetence...
You are also required to work at least 28 hours a day before they will consider you worthy enough of a paycheck and will hold your grandparents for ransom if you spell anything wrong. (I hate ChaCha)
Hes working too hard to answer.
Haha, this guy still believes in "basic human rights". He still believes in an objective morality.
We're dealing with a faith-based zealot here.
We're dealing with a faith-based zealot here.
Have you taken my suggestion of pretending to be an illegal alien and working 90 hours a week for less than the minimum wage? Or was it all bluster on your part?
I remember when I couldn't get more than 20 hours a week at my job...
I also distinctly remember going out and getting TWO more jobs, and started working 60-70 hours a week.
I found two more unlucky souls who thought they wanted to purchase my labor for the low, low price of minimum wage.
Working is fun.
I also distinctly remember going out and getting TWO more jobs, and started working 60-70 hours a week.
I found two more unlucky souls who thought they wanted to purchase my labor for the low, low price of minimum wage.
Working is fun.
Haha, this guy still believes in "basic human rights". He still believes in an objective morality.
We're dealing with a faith-based zealot here.
We're dealing with a faith-based zealot here.
But in any event, society has no right to say to people, "We know better than you what's good for you, so we're going to force you to act the way we think is best."
This sounds agreeable,except that it doesn't match reality at all. Every day new demands and rules are created by society, ranging from anti-discrimination laws through work regulations to smoking bans. Those who ignore this reality, and its underlying irrational part of human psychology, do so at their own peril.Quote
Plus, I don't believe you. You may say you care about preventing people from being exploited, but it seems much more likely, and much more sensible, that you're really trying to prevent competition. That is, you are trying to prevent people who *do* benefit from working lots of hours from doing so in the mistaken belief that this makes things easier for people who don't want to work lots of hours. That attitude is not only morally repugnant but it's logically wrong.
To me, you seem like saying "LALALALA, humans are fully rational beings that are able fully self-regulate and I don't want to hear anything else because it's not logical, LALALALALA". Maybe I am immoral, but I feel that acknowledging and questioning reality as it stands is better that maintaining feeling of moral supremacy and illusion of knowledge. Still, yes, there are basic human rights and I believe in them and I believe that to violate them is immoral. But also, man is a social animal that needs stable and working society with clear rules to support him/her. There was, is and will be strife for any foreseeable future. I see the worktime regulations being in the gray area somewhere between, and I am trying to think where they came from. 
It's very easy to think that you know what's good for someone better than they do, but you're almost always wrong.
You say a lot of insightful and knowledgeable things on this forum which I'm sure many enjoy, but this one, JoelKatz, should be posted in big letters somewhere everyone can read it.
If most employers were rational, they wouldn't require I work exactly 40 hours per week, because I've offered to work for less money per hour in exchange for less hours and they refuse.
As long as we're on the subject of forcing people to do things in connection with business, I don't like how governments force me to do all kinds of paperwork, get licenses, and many kinds of complexities that require hiring multiple experts, to sell my services without going through any other business. That's much worse than the 40 hours thing.
As long as we're on the subject of forcing people to do things in connection with business, I don't like how governments force me to do all kinds of paperwork, get licenses, and many kinds of complexities that require hiring multiple experts, to sell my services without going through any other business. That's much worse than the 40 hours thing.
* many dying people regret their decision to work so much
That tells you nothing useful about any individual person.Quote
* many programmers, despite being smart and in quite high demand, succumb to lifestyle that severely hurts their families, without getting anything tangible in return (so much for rationality, eh?).
That, again, tells you nothing about any individual person.Quote
You did not say a word whether you agree with these facts, or what do you think about them...
I think that making the decision person by person, and making the decision by the person whose interests are being protected, is always going to be superior to having disinterested people making one decision for everyone.But in any event, society has no right to say to people, "We know better than you what's good for you, so we're going to force you to act the way we think is best."
Plus, I don't believe you. You may say you care about preventing people from being exploited, but it seems much more likely, and much more sensible, that you're really trying to prevent competition. That is, you are trying to prevent people who *do* benefit from working lots of hours from doing so in the mistaken belief that this makes things easier for people who don't want to work lots of hours. That attitude is not only morally repugnant but it's logically wrong.
Who defines a great business?
The people in the business, of course.
It's because that working too much lower the value of the work you create. Only stupid/short-term/badly managed business are happy to overwork their employees regularly.
Having free time to think, study, discover and experiment helps you grow as a person. The more you are developed physically and mentally, the better you can add value to your work. If your persona stay small and undeveloped, yeah, you can work more hours, but these hours have less value for you over time.
A business owner who works its employees for 60 hours every week will make his profit with the difference between the output of his employees work, and the value as a human being of those employees. If your t-shirt is made in China, it's because the human being there have less value than the human being here. So, they're paid accordingly, and business owners profit from the difference.
A great business owner will let his employees grow their persona, so he can profit from the high value work those employees produce. Sure, those guys cost more, but they output more value in return.
The dogma of "you need to work hard" is half-crap created by factory managers who want to get the more juice they can from employees until they're dried enough to get fired. It's missing the part where you need to think before you work. Think, envision, plan and when you're ready, you go work hard. You stop, evaluate your work, rethink it, try something new, and you start working hard again. If somebody is doing the thinking part for you, you're not better than a slave with good living conditions.
Don't forget where "Arbeit Macht Frei" was written and for who.
Having free time to think, study, discover and experiment helps you grow as a person. The more you are developed physically and mentally, the better you can add value to your work. If your persona stay small and undeveloped, yeah, you can work more hours, but these hours have less value for you over time.
A business owner who works its employees for 60 hours every week will make his profit with the difference between the output of his employees work, and the value as a human being of those employees. If your t-shirt is made in China, it's because the human being there have less value than the human being here. So, they're paid accordingly, and business owners profit from the difference.
A great business owner will let his employees grow their persona, so he can profit from the high value work those employees produce. Sure, those guys cost more, but they output more value in return.
The dogma of "you need to work hard" is half-crap created by factory managers who want to get the more juice they can from employees until they're dried enough to get fired. It's missing the part where you need to think before you work. Think, envision, plan and when you're ready, you go work hard. You stop, evaluate your work, rethink it, try something new, and you start working hard again. If somebody is doing the thinking part for you, you're not better than a slave with good living conditions.
Don't forget where "Arbeit Macht Frei" was written and for who.
Who defines a great business?
I don't know how you could stop people from doing so -- short of slavery. The "right" to unionize is inherent.
What isn't, is the "right" to force people into unions in addition to forcing all people to support the unions through government force. That is not something I agree with.
If people wish to compete with union labor for lower wages, I believe they should do so.
What isn't, is the "right" to force people into unions in addition to forcing all people to support the unions through government force. That is not something I agree with.
If people wish to compete with union labor for lower wages, I believe they should do so.
So it is OK for people to assemble to threaten their employeer with not working if the employer refuses to pay the whole group 1.5 times pay for working over 40 hours a week, but the workers cannot threaten to stop working if the employer does not agree to only hire people that join the workers group?
Who is going to enforce your rule?
The individual, self-interest enforces my ideal rule. If individuals desire to work for less, in addition to being more numerous than union labor, why should they be denied employment? Why should they be denied a situation better than they have now because fewer union workers desire a higher wage?
I find it much easier to believe that programmers were working for a rational reason then I do that so many programmers were irrational. It's very easy to think that you know what's good for someone better than they do, but you're almost always wrong.
Easier to believe != always right Plus, I am not implying that I think I know these people. I supported my opinion with some evidence that:* many dying people regret their decision to work so much
* many programmers, despite being smart and in quite high demand, succumb to lifestyle that severely hurts their families, without getting anything tangible in return (so much for rationality, eh?).
You did not say a word whether you agree with these facts, or what do you think about them...
So, should somebody make the decision on how to run their lives for them? You know what's better for these people? Should they be parented?
It's because that working too much lower the value of the work you create. Only stupid/short-term/badly managed business are happy to overwork their employees regularly.
Having free time to think, study, discover and experiment helps you grow as a person. The more you are developed physically and mentally, the better you can add value to your work. If your persona stay small and undeveloped, yeah, you can work more hours, but these hours have less value for you over time.
A business owner who works its employees for 60 hours every week will make his profit with the difference between the output of his employees work, and the value as a human being of those employees. If your t-shirt is made in China, it's because the human being there have less value than the human being here. So, they're paid accordingly, and business owners profit from the difference.
A great business owner will let his employees grow their persona, so he can profit from the high value work those employees produce. Sure, those guys cost more, but they output more value in return.
The dogma of "you need to work hard" is half-crap created by factory managers who want to get the more juice they can from employees until they're dried enough to get fired. It's missing the part where you need to think before you work. Think, envision, plan and when you're ready, you go work hard. You stop, evaluate your work, rethink it, try something new, and you start working hard again. If somebody is doing the thinking part for you, you're not better than a slave with good living conditions.
Don't forget where "Arbeit Macht Frei" was written and for who.
Having free time to think, study, discover and experiment helps you grow as a person. The more you are developed physically and mentally, the better you can add value to your work. If your persona stay small and undeveloped, yeah, you can work more hours, but these hours have less value for you over time.
A business owner who works its employees for 60 hours every week will make his profit with the difference between the output of his employees work, and the value as a human being of those employees. If your t-shirt is made in China, it's because the human being there have less value than the human being here. So, they're paid accordingly, and business owners profit from the difference.
A great business owner will let his employees grow their persona, so he can profit from the high value work those employees produce. Sure, those guys cost more, but they output more value in return.
The dogma of "you need to work hard" is half-crap created by factory managers who want to get the more juice they can from employees until they're dried enough to get fired. It's missing the part where you need to think before you work. Think, envision, plan and when you're ready, you go work hard. You stop, evaluate your work, rethink it, try something new, and you start working hard again. If somebody is doing the thinking part for you, you're not better than a slave with good living conditions.
Don't forget where "Arbeit Macht Frei" was written and for who.
I find it much easier to believe that programmers were working for a rational reason then I do that so many programmers were irrational. It's very easy to think that you know what's good for someone better than they do, but you're almost always wrong.
Easier to believe != always right Plus, I am not implying that I think I know these people. I supported my opinion with some evidence that:* many dying people regret their decision to work so much
* many programmers, despite being smart and in quite high demand, succumb to lifestyle that severely hurts their families, without getting anything tangible in return (so much for rationality, eh?).
You did not say a word whether you agree with these facts, or what do you think about them...
I don't know how you could stop people from doing so -- short of slavery. The "right" to unionize is inherent.
What isn't, is the "right" to force people into unions in addition to forcing all people to support the unions through government force. That is not something I agree with.
If people wish to compete with union labor for lower wages, I believe they should do so.
What isn't, is the "right" to force people into unions in addition to forcing all people to support the unions through government force. That is not something I agree with.
If people wish to compete with union labor for lower wages, I believe they should do so.
So it is OK for people to assemble to threaten their employeer with not working if the employer refuses to pay the whole group 1.5 times pay for working over 40 hours a week, but the workers cannot threaten to stop working if the employer does not agree to only hire people that join the workers group?
Who is going to enforce your rule?
It's my first time entering the workforce and it seems finding work that exceeds 40 hours a week is hard.
Why? Because the state feels it's necessary to mandate employers by force to pay 1.5 times the wage for every hour worked overtime.
Fuck this. If I want to offer labor for more than 40 hours per week, it's my damn right. It's my labor.
Why? Because the state feels it's necessary to mandate employers by force to pay 1.5 times the wage for every hour worked overtime.
Fuck this. If I want to offer labor for more than 40 hours per week, it's my damn right. It's my labor.
Be thankful that overtime is time and a half. You have no idea. The whole thing you're missing is without time and a half as a disincentive for the employer to work you more than 40 hours a week, they'd walk all over you if you didn't work 60 hours a week and fire your ass if it happened to be inconvenient for you.
I will not thank the state for coercing businesses and individuals. Some people have families to feed and they need to work more hours. When stores can't afford to, it can be a problem.
That's my point. You're in competition with people who can outwork you like you can't believe. You probably can't keep up with them. They just work and sleep. If not for time and half, the business would fire you because you finally get tired of 70 hour weeks.
I don't have the right to a job from a business that caters to and prefers hardworkers. Why should I deny a more efficient and harder worker more hours and a business better gains for those hours?
Do you think people have a right to get together with other workers and refuse to work unless they are paid 1.5 times more for working over 40 hours a week?
I don't know how you could stop people from doing so -- short of slavery. The "right" to unionize is inherent.
What isn't, is the "right" to force people into unions in addition to forcing all people to support the unions through government force. That is not something I agree with.
If people wish to compete with union labor for lower wages, I believe they should do so.
It's my first time entering the workforce and it seems finding work that exceeds 40 hours a week is hard.
Why? Because the state feels it's necessary to mandate employers by force to pay 1.5 times the wage for every hour worked overtime.
Fuck this. If I want to offer labor for more than 40 hours per week, it's my damn right. It's my labor.
Why? Because the state feels it's necessary to mandate employers by force to pay 1.5 times the wage for every hour worked overtime.
Fuck this. If I want to offer labor for more than 40 hours per week, it's my damn right. It's my labor.
Be thankful that overtime is time and a half. You have no idea. The whole thing you're missing is without time and a half as a disincentive for the employer to work you more than 40 hours a week, they'd walk all over you if you didn't work 60 hours a week and fire your ass if it happened to be inconvenient for you.
I will not thank the state for coercing businesses and individuals. Some people have families to feed and they need to work more hours. When stores can't afford to, it can be a problem.
That's my point. You're in competition with people who can outwork you like you can't believe. You probably can't keep up with them. They just work and sleep. If not for time and half, the business would fire you because you finally get tired of 70 hour weeks.
I don't have the right to a job from a business that caters to and prefers hardworkers. Why should I deny a more efficient and harder worker more hours and a business better gains for those hours?
Do you think people have a right to get together with other workers and refuse to work unless they are paid 1.5 times more for working over 40 hours a week?
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