SolidCoin v2.01 Released - page 7. | Bitcointalksearch.org

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: localhost on November 02, 2011, 10:45:53 AM

Quote from: CoinHunter on November 02, 2011, 10:42:48 AM

You can argue however that the CPF is 5% centralization, and I agree with that. There is a current 5% economic centralization in SolidCoin.

Try again, it's centralized on 10 (or so) trusted nodes. Doesn't sound like 5% economic centralization.

Given real solid has the private keys for all 10 and can move funds between them even the 10 is obfuscation.

There is a single effective ~~trust~~ control node. It is completely under the control of Real Solid. It will enforce any change made by him at anytime. Anyone who fails to upgrade is locked out of the network.

The even blocks were never about trust. The concept of trusting the rich, because they are rich is dubious on face value.
The even blocks are about complete and absolute control of the network both now and into the future.

CoinHunter

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 02, 2011, 10:46:35 AM

They can be refilled. You are simply moving money from one pocket you control into another pocket you control (w/ added bonus of each time you do it you gain some -5% vs +10%). There will be no other trusted node for years. Even if there is your fiat trusted nodes can veto them. In effect there is only a single control node and you control it. That won't be changing for years and most likely will never change.

What are you basing that on? That they can be refilled? If you read the source you would see they currently cannot be refilled.

Since you refuse to educate yourself I assume you are posting because you're a troll. Yeah?

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 02, 2011, 10:46:35 AM

The difference is people have a choice. They can choose to mine elsewhere. With your "control nodes" there is no choice. You could change block reward to 200,000 tomorrow or eliminate it all together. The control node (lets drop the dubiousness of plural) will enforce that change. You can halt the network, block transactions, increase the kings tax to 30%, remove the "restriction" on 12M premine, create an even block giving you 100,000 coins, and nobody can stop or alter that. If they don't accept the change and upgrade the client the control nodes lock them out.

It isn't "kinda centralized". It is complete and absolute centralized control by a single person.

People can choose to invest themselves with a million SC and become a trust node. No one is stopping them. So they also have a choice. Not sure of your point, you fail to understand some basic SolidCoin principles.

LoupGaroux

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And having control in one set of hands is "decentralized"?

Massive changes in theory, protocol and implementation without user participation in the p2p process is "decentralized"?

Releasing the entire concept of sc2 with enormous fanfare, while still riddled with errors, hidden features that affect all and benefit few, rife with inaccurate statements, and misrepresentations, and then calling the whole thing a "beta phase" release that somehow is entitled to special rules. This is decentralized?

Can somebody link me to an Australian-Hero-Worship to English Dictionary? I apparently don't understand what the man is saying?

CoinHunter

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Quote from: localhost on November 02, 2011, 10:45:53 AM

Quote from: CoinHunter on November 02, 2011, 10:42:48 AM

You can argue however that the CPF is 5% centralization, and I agree with that. There is a current 5% economic centralization in SolidCoin.

Try again, it's centralized on 10 (or so) trusted nodes. Doesn't sound like 5% economic centralization.

No, you're confusing accounts for nodes. The same accounts can be run on many nodes.

Let me ask you a question, was Bitcoin centralized when it was only 10 people running it? Is Bitcoin centralized now that 3 cop pools control 80% of the network?

johnj

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Quote from: CoinHunter on November 02, 2011, 10:42:48 AM

If you think having trust nodes is centralization then I can argue that having mining clients is also centralization. Non mining clients are forced to accept what the mining clients tell them. Scary isn't it.

If that's scary, then it's even scarier that -everyone- using SC is forced to accept what the 'trusted nodes' tell them.

Either you're an idiot your you're scamming folk. Those two aren't mutually exclusive.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: CoinHunter on November 02, 2011, 10:36:53 AM

The trusted nodes don't "send" any money to the CPF. They "lose" money by signing a trusted block, it's part of the protection mechanism.

BS take a look in your own block explorer. Ever even block the trusted nodes transfer money to YOUR WALLET. Obfuscated all you want but each even block
a) trusted node is reduced by 5% of prior block reward.
b) your wallet gains 10% of prior block.

Quote

The 10 initial trust accounts aren't designed to stick around forever, they lose money, most will be replaced by real millionaires, with perhaps one or two supported by the community.

They can be refilled. You are simply moving money from one pocket you control into another pocket you control (w/ added bonus of each time you do it you gain some -5% vs +10%). There will be no other trusted node for years. Even if there is your fiat trusted nodes can veto them. In effect there is only a single control node and you control it. That won't be changing for years and most likely will never change.

Quote

Everyone bickering about centralization doesn't really know what they are talking about, BitCoin features more centralization than SolidCoin. 3 Bitcoin pools own 80% of the network, so don't make me laugh.

The difference is people have a choice. They can choose to mine elsewhere. With your "control nodes" there is no choice. You could change block reward to 200,000 tomorrow or eliminate it all together. The control node (lets drop the dubiousness of plural) will enforce that change. You can halt the network, block transactions, increase the kings tax to 30%, remove the "restriction" on 12M premine, create an even block giving you 100,000 coins, and nobody can stop or alter that. If they don't accept the change and upgrade the client the control nodes lock them out.

It isn't "kinda centralized". It is complete and absolute centralized control by a single person.

localhost

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Quote from: CoinHunter on November 02, 2011, 10:42:48 AM

You can argue however that the CPF is 5% centralization, and I agree with that. There is a current 5% economic centralization in SolidCoin.

Try again, it's centralized on 10 (or so) trusted nodes. Doesn't sound like 5% economic centralization.

CoinHunter

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Quote from: johnj on November 02, 2011, 10:40:07 AM

CH, you're a blithering fool if you can't discern between centralization built into the protocol (sc), and decentralization built into the protocol (Btc).

If you think having trust nodes is centralization then I can argue that having mining clients is also centralization. Non mining clients are forced to accept what the mining clients tell them. Scary isn't it.

The fact is the network in SolidCoin is not centralized at all. It's peer to peer, no other node needs to know who is signing trust blocks, they appear on the network and they accept them, just like non mining bitcoin clients accept mining blocks. There is zero difference.

You can argue however that the CPF is 5% centralization, and I agree with that. There is a current 5% economic centralization in SolidCoin. If you want to state facts, then do so, you really need to stop with your nonsense.

localhost

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Quote from: FlipPro on November 02, 2011, 10:29:29 AM

What makes you think we didn't collectively come up with all these ideas? The economic platform is something that I and many others here have embraced as more stable economic ideology.

Define "many"...

johnj

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Quote from: CoinHunter on November 02, 2011, 10:36:53 AM

The trusted nodes don't "send" any money to the CPF. They "lose" money by signing a trusted block, it's part of the protection mechanism.

The 10 initial trust accounts aren't designed to stick around forever, they lose money, most will be replaced by real millionaires, with perhaps one or two supported by the community.

People can see the source now, if you want 51% protection SolidCoin offers it. If you don't then stick with whatever you're on. SolidCoin features a number of improvements over all chains, cpu+gpu mining at watt for watt efficiencies, confirmed transactions within 3 minutes, massive increase in security, mining within the client and support for a proper p2p backbone. No one can deny these features. Everyone bickering centralization doesn't really know what they are talking about, BitCoin features more centralization than SolidCoin. 3 pools own 80% of the network.

CH, you're a blithering fool if you can't discern between centralization built into the protocol (sc), and decentralization built into the protocol (Btc).

By your own words, SC is not fully protected form a 51% attack, just makes it harder. Your 'cpu + gpu mining at watt for watt effeciences' is bogus w/o data. 'Massive increase in security' is a joke. And your 'mining within the client', uh bro, you didn't invent that, and LTC does it better Grin

johnj

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Quote from: ?? on ??

*Epiphany moment* Now I see there will be absolutely no appeasing you lot ever under any circumstances.... unless of course everything was released as a clone of Bitcoin... but hey you got bitcoin for that so just stick to that I guess.

You will be able to see signs of foul play in the client source, it cannot be 100% hidden if the trusted nodes were running some special super secret code base. So there is no -may- about it, look at the source and find the signs of foul play. All of you have been whining about no source, and I theorized way back when that you wouldn't read it anyway so prove me wrong.

Viper, it's foolish to think that providing the source would make the questions go away. Now we're having the discussion we should have been having at release. Any information gained until now has been solely based on the word of one guy who doesn't mind changing his stance at any time.

And many of the new questions are about the code running on 'trust nodes' - which have nothing to do with the code running on peasant miners.

CoinHunter

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The trusted nodes don't "send" any money to the CPF. They "lose" money by signing a trusted block, it's part of the protection mechanism.

The 10 initial trust accounts aren't designed to stick around forever, they lose money, most will be replaced by real millionaires, with perhaps one or two supported by the community.

People can see the source now, if you want 51% protection SolidCoin offers it. If you don't then stick with whatever you're on. SolidCoin features a number of improvements over all chains, cpu+gpu mining at watt for watt efficiencies, confirmed transactions within 3 minutes, massive increase in security, mining within the client and support for a proper p2p backbone. No one can deny these features. Everyone bickering about centralization doesn't really know what they are talking about, BitCoin features more centralization than SolidCoin. 3 Bitcoin pools own 80% of the network, so don't make me laugh.

LoupGaroux

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So, if I read your statements correctly... Trusted Nodes CAN spend these "early" pre-mine cum genesis coins until they approach 1 million on hand and then they cannot be spent because of public key registration in all clients?

Can you please show in the code the switch that turns off the ability for them to be spent at that critical time gate?

Absolute control was required early in development, but now that this "Trusted Source" that may or may not be what is actually running on some, all or none of the nodes (we have no way of knowing do we?) control is somehow reverted back to... (wait for it...)... the same central controlling authority as before. No block on the ability to invalidate blocks has been implemented, the ability to revise AT WILL any aspect of the creation of blocks remains with The Creator, and all of the questionable creation factors remain.

While I'm intrigued to see this nicely written thread to provide the sc supporters with a podium to proclaim their belief in the project, I don't think this well polished presentation copy of "source" does anything to address the issues that the greater audience needs to see confronted.

The whole cloth is still Swiss Cheese. Nice try though, catchy title.

edit- corrected "and" to "any"

FlipPro

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Quote from: localhost on November 02, 2011, 10:24:28 AM

Quote from: FlipPro on November 02, 2011, 10:08:33 AM

1.Before RS shut down the network people had plenty of time to get out. But the majority of his supporters stood by him and understood the reasoning behind all the events(BTCEX, Artfroz attack). Anyone who remained as an SC2.0 supporter understood that they were handing over 100% control over to Real Solid.

Are you kidding? The network shutdown was announced barely a few hours before it occurred. It was so fast that a big pool owner didn't even notice it until several hours after the shutdown!
And when the shutdown was announced, it was just "to fix the 50%+1 attack". Only MUCH after came the CPU-biased mining and the tax. And only after the SC2 release we were made aware of the shitloads of post-pre-mined coins.

So no, we didn't have plenty of time to get out. And no we had no idea of the mess it would become before it shut down. Get some memory.

What makes you think we didn't collectively come up with all these ideas? The economic platform is something that I and many others here have embraced as more stable economic ideology. Regardless supporters of SC1 got all their coins back and were able to cash out at around the same price before the closing of the network, so we are discussing a non issue.

localhost

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Quote from: FlipPro on November 02, 2011, 10:08:33 AM

1.Before RS shut down the network people had plenty of time to get out. But the majority of his supporters stood by him and understood the reasoning behind all the events(BTCEX, Artfroz attack). Anyone who remained as an SC2.0 supporter understood that they were handing over 100% control over to Real Solid.

Are you kidding? The network shutdown was announced barely a few hours before it occurred. It was so fast that a big pool owner didn't even notice it until several hours after the shutdown!
And when the shutdown was announced, it was just "to fix the 50%+1 attack". Only MUCH after came the CPU-biased mining and the tax. And only after the SC2 release we were made aware of the shitloads of post-pre-mined coins.

So no, we didn't have plenty of time to get out. And no we had no idea of the mess it would become before it shut down. Get some memory.

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 02, 2011, 10:20:52 AM

Worse that person can make any change to the "limits" on the control nodes. For example an updated version of the client could allow transfering unlimited funds from the 12M premine to another account. If you don't like it well you have no choice. The control nodes are the enforcers of the network.

So the claim of unpsendability is bogus. If one person can make any change to the network and everyone must comply then there is no limit on his power.

Oh, wait, I get it. The network isn't 50%+1 attackable simple because... it already is 50%+1 owned

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: ?? on ??

You will be able to see signs of foul play in the client source, it cannot be 100% hidden if the trusted nodes were running some special super secret code base. So there is no -may- about it, look at the source and find the signs of foul play. All of you have been whining about no source, and I theorized way back when that you wouldn't read it anyway so prove me wrong.

The issue isn't "hidden" but control.

A single person controls the "~~trusted~~ control nodes" as such he can force any change he wishes on the network. Failure to comply means you are forked out of the network as the control nodes can ensure your blocks & transactions never become part of the chain. An updated version of the client could allow transfering unlimited funds from the 12M premine to another account. If you don't like it well you have no choice. The control nodes are the enforcers of the network.

When one person owns all/most of the assets and all the keys than any existing restriction is meaningless. Any restriction in place now could be removed as easily as the block reward was reduced from 32 to 5. If he does what can you do? Failure to upgrade locks you out of the network. So the claim of unpsendability is bogus. It is only enforced by the protocol and if the same person controls the 12M and controls the keys to the protcol then it isn't much of a restrction is it?

Given the bait and switch in coin generation rate there will be no other trusted node for many years. Even once someone does have 1M taxcoins, RS still controls 12M and thus can override the decision of any other trusted node. There is now only one "ruler" and that will never change. A completely locked down fiat monetary system with single person having the ability to make any change on a whim. Hell even the federal reserve doesn't have that much power.

FlipPro

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Quote from: meelba on November 02, 2011, 10:09:50 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 02, 2011, 10:05:38 AM

No there are 14.2 million and RS owns 12 million of those plus the ~130K more collected by the king's tax.

So roughly 85% of all coins are owned by a single person.

really greedy beach Cool

That's a flat out lie. DeathAndTaxes sure likes to lie alot.

Fiyasko

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Okey Dokey Lokey

Quote from: k9quaint on November 02, 2011, 10:09:09 AM

So now there are two versions of Solidcoin2. One for the pumpers and one for the dumper(s)?

+1

meelba

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 02, 2011, 10:05:38 AM

No there are 14.2 million and RS owns 12 million of those plus the ~130K more collected by the king's tax.

So roughly 85% of all coins are owned by a single person.

really greedy beach Cool

k9quaint

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So now there are two versions of Solidcoin2. One for the pumpers and one for the dumper(s)?

Topic: SolidCoin v2.01 Released - page 7. (Read 8375 times)