Topic: Some thoughts about the old-new trust system (Read 1027 times)

Well yes exactly so.

If you dare to mention facts about any dirty tricks they are implicated in or something they dont like...... red trust lol

I think my topic will also be interesting:
TMAN abuse DT system. Remove TMAN from DT, include him in Blacklist from future

I'll bump this thread with my answer to you.

Oh, you know that's not true. If everything was fine, there wouldn't be changes. Does that make sense? (rhetorical question)

I also received a negative feedback because I'm spreading the information about this:

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• DefaultTrust changes

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• A short introduction to the Trust System

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• [Explained] Importance of Custom Trust List

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• Customized Trust Network – Interactive tool to see who we trust/distrust

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• [Infographic] Leaving Feedback vs Custom Trust List

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Must mean he is not someone you want there for good reason.

Anyone with a ~ on a trust abusers (tman) list is probably worth looking at and likely to be very trustworthy.

Can you put you list up tman I'd like to laugh at the concentration of dirt bags.

100% back this up. FYI anyone interested

~TheFuzzStone is on my trustlist.

xxx

Bump!

Today is a good day... to make your own DT0.

Dear User, take this seriously. if you read this, see the links please:

• DefaultTrust changes

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• A short introduction to the Trust System

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• [Explained] Importance of Custom Trust List

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• Customized Trust Network – Interactive tool to see who we trust/distrust

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• [Infographic] Leaving Feedback vs Custom Trust List

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Tman - extortion suspect with lauda and owlcatz who support him on dt - red trusts people for presenting facts. Sexual deviant rantings.
lauda - proven liar, extortion suspect and some say has shady escrow practises
suchmoon - proven double standards

excluding them apparently means you are in a different gang to them and you are in the wrong .

They have good reasons to exclude you but can not provide anything to demonstrate that you are untrustworthy

I like it.

you don't fully understand the system, you have loads of rando's on your trust list, and you excluded me and others as retaliation.

all in all you are a shit candidate for DT-1 fella, nothing personal at all - I said something similar to someone I trust and respect, but he did something about it..

I don't know. Check my account and tell me.

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Most likely that the information below will not lead to anything good. But still...
The information below is provided for informational purposes only and should not in any way affect your decision to create your DT0.

I'm a Monero-enthusiast from Ukraine and one of the creators of the biggest local Monero community: https://xmr.ru/

Probably no one will not do this, but still -- "Don't trust. Verify."

You can ask some feedbacks about me in Russian board of this forum. Then, on the biggest crypto-forum of Commonwealth of Independent States (https://forum.bits.media/).
In 2016 I worked a little with http://forklog.com/ (you can ask an owner).
Helped to organize offline crypto-events in Kyiv (the capital of Ukraine): http://blockchainconf.org  //  http://kyiv.blockchainforum.com (about these two you can ask an owner of http://gesellberg.com)
A few times work together with Livecoin exchange (you can ask it https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/livecoin-462136)
If some one will need, I can also share some local Telegram chats where you can request feedbacks about me.


Also, I'm providing an escrow service. For now I'm the only Russain/Ukranian speaking escrow who can escrow a deal via multisignature not only for BTC, but also for ETH.

These are my main threads:

• https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/296-btc-75-eth-3255367
• https://forum.bits.media/index.php?/topic/82054-%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%82-%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%89%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%BC%D0%B0-%D1%81%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA-296-btc-%D0%B8-75-eth/

And these are my manuals:

• https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/electrum-bitcoin-3308541   (Electrum)
• https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ethereum-5045068   (GNOSIS)

EDIT HERE. Just wanna leave a link. I forgot to say that for now I'm working with HodlHodl.com. How you can check it? Check this tweet and see accounts who retweeted it (official account of HodlHodl and CEO Max Keidun).

Also I'm contributing a little to Monero:  https://github.com/TheFuzzStone

I've never participated in bounty.

And here is a list of my contacts:  https://zerobin.net/?b60e0b0d2a5b0013#Iw9rm3YwfjO9BZfmmy3GcrFgOyqQwHhXmmAvN1jRzvI=
Do not forget to ask me to sign the message with my PGP-key if you find my nickname on other sites. To verify the signed message just paste it here: https://keybase.io/verify

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Ok.

It does not matter. I did not break up the forum rules -- the thread is created in the correct section and I just expressed my thoughts without offending or insulting anyone.

This is an informed choice, and that is good, I like it.

EDIT. Fixed some typos and added links to Twitter post that confirms my collaboration with HodlHodl.com and also added link to my Github.

The irony is that you probably dug your own hole with this thread. I have excluded you partly because you've you've shown very weak grasp of how the forum works and I'm worried that your trust list contains people you like but not necessarily have a good judgement. I have reviewed a few and decided that instead of excluding each one individually I'd rather exclude you. And this post complaining about that seems to indicate this was the right decision. I don't recall any other DT1 member doing that. Krogo was another one I excluded and he took it in stride.

This is true in part. However these systems of control with influence ALL persons that wish to be paid2post and trade. That is a huge section of the board. 

I am not sure how quickly if at all things can improve the longer merit is left this broken and open to abuse/collusion.

I agree with your take and think the current state of DT is embarrassing. However, theymos is trying his best to put in place a system that will ultimately lead to fair and accurate ratings. He sees what’s happening and I don’t think complaining about it will get him to change anything any sooner. Best case scenario, this system will be used as a honeypot to identify longtime abusers and blacklist them. Worst case scenario, the trust system is run by scammers so it can’t be relied upon, forcing you to make your own trust list and you go on with your life. Unless you’re dependent upon signature campaigns to keep a roof over your head, it really shouldn’t effect you at all.

It is very simple

pull up this

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;dtview

Now look who is supporting who

then pull up

https://bpip.org

search the user and see who is in their top 10 fans and receivers (better if could see top 20)

so we have a system where they award themselves merit, then use those awards to vote each other into positions of trust.


sounds legit

so you end up with

1. proven liars
2. proven double starndards
3. proven people that create 2 accounts to troll and sig spam for btc dust
4. proven abusers of the trust system
5. the rest a bunch of scared ass wimps who will turn a blind eye to it all.


complain to theymos

well that will not work because he put too much effort into building these systems to recognise that people are colluding and using the subjectivity he left in there to abuse the power they have. I think he is hoping in the long term these will get diluted down. Meanwhile though he does not know that it will work like that and rather the bad eggs colluding already will just groom new bag eggs and only allow them access through their earned merits.

He thinks that because he tells them to use the systems responsibly they will. LOL  you can't rely on these types of people to act unselfishly


simple and compelling theory based upon historical observable events

complain in here? this is the colluders head quarters

It looks like I am as you are out of DT1 (every DT1 member actually now is, which was not the case before!). Nobody in their right mind would include you (nobody has). Quite misplaced.

I can't read anything that's completely in bold. Plus probably wrong thread.

As you can see, you are not deciding here, just accept this fact.

I'm not. That post is just a screenshot to show active users the importance of setting up personal DT0. You often confuse me with someone. I do not complain, do not get angry and do not take offense at you. Negative feelings are bad for the person who experiences them. I do not need this at all.

Now I need to post a couple of articles and news about Monero, translated by our XMR.RU-team.

So, I wish you to have a good evening (without sarcasm and ulterior motives). If today you write something in this thread, then I will most likely answer tomorrow or the day after.

LOL says an person implicated in a big extortion scheme, a supporter and colluder of a proven LIAR and a person that demonstrates sexual deviance (not that makes you untrustworthy i guess), abuser of the Trust system.

read your OP and tell me you are the best candidate for DT...

You are a random; randoms shouldn't be on DT1. Stop complaining.

About an hour ago theymos published a new DT1 list:  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.49230484

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And now this:

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These people don't even know who I am and what I do, but nevermind   

That's why every active user of this forum must make a conscious decision and create your own DT0.

The same. Lauda won't change his mind and it is clear why.

But if you think for a while about this:


This is a good start.  


No one forces you to follow this thread.

Produce an example or shut up.

This one was funny...

Again, this. OP won't change his mind regardless of what gets brought up, therefore this thread is a waste of time. You could at least make your idiocy a bit more amusing like cryptohunter.

take a look at the market place "digital goods" > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=93.0

i am willing to make a "blind" estimation that the majority " more than 70% of the sellers there are scammers , anyone with an IQ above 0 knows this already.

most of those people are tagged by DT members, this reduces the chance of the new coming users you talk about getting scammed.

the trust system is not perfect at all , giving the fact that you do not know or trust any of the DT members, but it's more like viewing a hotel/restaurant  reviews before visiting them, while a lot of the feedback could be wrong/fake you seldom see a very good hotel with more negative reviews than positives, everyone looks for reviews before buying any goods, booking a hotel or a dinner table, you probably do that yourself, while you do not know/trust any of the reviewers their overall feedback usually means something.

TL;DR > the default trust with all the shit it has is differently better than nothing, even if there was a single honest DT member many good souls will be saved.

No, because I am not interested in Entomology. And where did you get the habit of moving away from the topic? Why did you ask this question in theese thread?

What about Google? What about the forum search engine? What about feedbacks in threads? What about feedbacks from not bots/alts? What about checking accounts from which feedbacks were left? These are all rhetorical questions. It is clear that users do not want to leave DT1. I've never been cheated by scammers and not because of some mystical protection from DT1. 

No. And again you did not understand correctly, or did not want to understand.

Oh, In that way? I have no desire to waste my time on an ignorant person. If you want to find a person to quarrel, then this is not for me.

Well, here you are again mistaken, dear DT1 user. Is the conversation going to personal insults? I did not think that you would be angry so soon and that was not my goal.

Smart People Quotes^TM.

And this is why this percentage needs to be raised!

Wrong. See an answer in the top of this post.

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Many have, and many more will as long as they don't listen to the likes of you.

Which will never, ever happen nor has it ever happened in any similarily sized community online.

Those are the consequences of your suggestion. If you don't understand them, then don't make the suggestion to begin with.

You might be living under a rock. Many have been protected because of fast-tracked tagging (e.g. recent ETH forks).

Bullshit doesn't deserve friendly responses.

I am 100% convinced you've first heard the word decentralization when you encountered Bitcoin. Sometimes false knowledge is more dangerous than ignorance.

How many "active users" know about these things now? < 10% (if I'm being extremely optimistic)? Heck, we even have DT members that don't fully understand how the system works. Hence:

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I'm going to assume that the answer is "God will protect me and punish the scammers".

TheFuzzStone, can you name your 25 favorite entomologists?

How do you expect a person just learning a topic to choose who to trust?

Thank you for explanation. But got to known it better here.

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Does that mean :

45 people with >= 250 earned merits (you need to be added in the trust list by least two of them).
6.810 people with >= 10 earned merits (you need to be added in the trust list by least ten of them)

I'm using it. But thanks for a suggestion!

... and they did get not help from DT1

Where did you read this in my post? My point is that new registered users should not have by default  DefaultTrust in their trust list. This list should be chosen consciously by each user.

These are your words, not mine.


I do not see any "protection" on which you insist. Eventually, the user will have to decide to work with an other user or not.

Very reasoned remark. I thought we would have a friendly conversation here.

Done.

Because you said so? Sorry, but no.

It turns out you want to decide for the majority of users of this forum? Maybe we will not teach everyone. But I am sure, that we do not need centralization. But that is only my thoughts on this situation. Every active user of Bitcointalk must know about DT1, DefaultTrust and what is mean. That is my point.

Not that easy. Amonst the full requirements specified in the DefaultTrust changes, you need to have:
We’re talking about earned merits here, not airdropped merits.


Currently (see https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zmj_95rzAM_tGJeXZTodw8MJmrcv4oJ4k5kve_2VEtQ/edit?usp=sharing) there is a potential of:

145 people with >= 250 earned merits (you need trust from at least two of them).
6.810 people with >= 10 earned merits (you need trust from at least ten of them).

On top of that, the merit between the Trustor and Trusted does not compute, so the above figures will vary (be less) per person.

Unless you have a sea of merit and enough DT1 members to overtake everything, you can't do that. We'd kick you back out. If you somehow managed to take over the majority, theymos would blacklist you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not does the new trust system nor did the old one had the condition for a user to create a custom list, it is only an option that is provided to you (after the new changes) to help build the new DT1 that will periodically be reconstructed (as theymos said) to include the users that matches these criteria:


See what theymos said about making a custom list:



I didn't quite understand your point about the scammers. There is nothing that a scammer can do with the new changes. It is not like if a scammer can get into the DT1 since they can never meet the criteria for that. An scammer can never get 2 people with more than 250 earned Merits to be directly trusting them.

I think it would be a bad decision to just delete the default trust list of all the new members of the forum. It would just make no sense for the trust system to newbie while they should be the one's who should be taking the most advantage of it.

Yes, this is a possible crack to the system and it should surely be considered by theymos. A person can created many number of alts to put himself on a default trust list.

Yeah OP.

Use your head of course you want to by default trust lauda.

I mean ....just the facts..

Lauda is a proven liar (said he was on the xcoin/dash launch and there was NO PREMINE) and suspected by senior other members to also be an extortionist, there seems also some questions over his handling of escrowing also. He tries to silence people simply encouraging  others to review his observable post history and shut them up by giving red trust or just ordering them to lock their threads.

Why would you not by default want to place trust in him and his ratings?

Disregard anything this very untrustworthy person says.

If you would like to review. Some are in my signature and the darkcoin instamine LIE is there for all to see on my other theymos only thread.

That is just lauda.

Go here. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;dtview

You can then witness who supports lauda to be a member of the trust system, who does not care if he is or not, and those who actually oppose him being there.

You can review, investigate and analyse what I have told you. Then you can make up your own mind who (if any ) of the DT list you want to keep. Any you do not just put ~ in front of their name.

Use your head. Some people get scammed even by user accounts that already have red trust; do you really think it would be better if there was no red trust?

Let's toss everyone into chaos. After all if we can protect some users, why should we? It's their responsibility to protect themselves.

You're using quotes that you think you understand, but you really don't. What exactly would you verify instead of trusting?   Enough with this fallacious nonsense.

The difference between a seller with 100 trusted feedback, and an escrow with 100 trusted feedback is what exactly? You'd choose the escrow because he/she is an escrow?

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Here's a simple solution: Remove Defaulttrust from your trust settings and lock this thread. I'm not sure whether this is utopian-styled "we can educate everyone on the planet not to be naive", or dystopian-styled "throw everyone infront the bus, it's their responsibility" thinking. Whichever it is, it is wrong.

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Edit: Many typos.

Why? Explain please. I think that this is a baseless statement.

Example, I'm here since 06 December 2015, you are here since 17 April 2013 and you are in DT1. When I created an account, no one told me that you personally would protect me from scammers. Am I right? I even know that you are exist  .

If I were fooled by a scammer, only I would be responsible and I think it's right.

So, why so many years I "trusted" you by default? ("You", in the context of DT1)

Sorry, I will repeat myself, why? Could you explain how you see this? I can. I never trust someone by default. I know that there are many good people on this forum, but still, by default I don't trust anyone. I will check everything by myself. At least, I need to do my own research. But, by default -- never.

I see your point, and the answer is -- the escrow.
Yeah, "Who you can to trust if you do not trust anyone?", but still, if an escrow have a thread (not self-moderated) and there is a lot of feedbacks, so after checking these feedback and the account owners I will make my decision to work with that person or not.

 

Because the rate of new users getting scammed would be ridiculous otherwise.

That is nonsense that can't be applied to this. Who are you going to trade with, some random that never did paypal-to-btc or someone who has 100+ such succesful changes? Oh right, don't trust verify the 0-trade-newbie offering reversible methods of payment. <- shows how absurd your attempt is.

EDIT.
Here you can find some info about me --> https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.49232976

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My English is not the best, but I'll try to explain my thoughts. If I'm somewhere wrong, I will be grateful if you correct me.

Disclaimer. I do not intend to offend anyone or to start a political / religious / clan dispute.

I am a crypto enthusiast and user of this forum since 2015. I did not attach any importance to DT0... until yesterday evening.

Several times before, I read about DT1 and what kind of war is going on around it, and how blood is shed in the form of a red trust, etc. I do not like any wars, and for myself I decided “not to stick in the trenches and not take anyone's side”. Wars have been going on for a long time, and I have no desire to waste my time to re-read tons of information in order to figure out who is right.

So, the old-new system.

If I understood correctly, the latest update from theymos should urge our community to take seriously the creation of its own DT0, to thereby help form a common DT1. To form your own DT0 is necessary solely on the basis of personal experience of being on the forum. The motivation is certainly good, and personally I will observe the overall situation.

As far as I understand, after the registration of a new user, he is automatically “subscribed” to the Default Trust. But why?

Let's imagine for a moment that we have some user (not a new multi-account for bounty or scammer) is registering on the forum who wants to learn something new about this wonderful, and at the same time cruel crypto-world, wants to buy BTC for 10-20 bucks in the equivalent of its local fiat currency.

The question is, why this user have to be subscribed to DefaultTrust? Why a new user should “trust” unknown users from the first second of being on the forum? And what about one of the main principle? -- “Don’t trust. Verify.”
  
Would not it be more logical that new users have been subscribed to satoshi? ( reference to: If you don't want to trust anyone, trust someone with an empty trust list (satoshi, for example) )

Well, suppose that our new user by default “does not believe anyone” (subscribed to satoshi), and he begins to live a forum life. And everything seems to be good for him, after a couple of months he found crypto friends on the forum, gained a certain reputation in a small community of people, etc. After some time on the forum, everyone finds a crypto-friend('s) for himself, or you just see that there are some community members who are trying to improve this forum with their answers / tips for newbies, helpful manuals / articles, etc., and you don’t must communicate with them.

In order for our user to consciously and voluntarily join the forum’s system of trust, he first needs to explain what it is and why it is important both for him and for the entire community.
The easiest way is to inform new users is the first message forum rules thread and thread about Merit. Usually these two threads have the most views. Also, not all local users know English, therefore translations (or own posts from active local users) are needed to inform local users about the trust system. I think some users will agree to translate threads about the trust system from English into their local languages.

About the scammers ... they will be, as always.  I think that they are already trying to find a cheat-code for the updated system. Do not be surprised if after a while we'll see the posts about selling/buying a place in someone's trust list.

Also on the forum there is a large number of "dead" accounts, which most likely have a... DefaultTrust. I understand that this forum engine is old, and it is very difficult to do something to it, but I think it would be good to reset the trust list for all accounts that are “sleeping” for more than a year. And if such an account “wakes up”, then let it see it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;suggest or some other alternative. (It would be interesting to see the statistics of “awakened” accounts after such reset)

Also, in theory, it will be seen who will try to cheat the system. For example, within a couple of minutes 10 accounts are registered, and immediately the same nickname appears in these 10 newbie accounts trust lists, or even a list of users, whom these 10 beginners begin to “trust”.

These were my thoughts.
Thanks for attention.

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UPDATE. Links:

• DefaultTrust changes

---

• A short introduction to the Trust System

---

• [Explained] Importance of Custom Trust List

---

• Customized Trust Network – Interactive tool to see who we trust/distrust

---

• [Infographic] Leaving Feedback vs Custom Trust List

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#MakeYourOwnDT0