Topic: Spending and Receiving Stolen Coins. (Read 8047 times)

but there are honest crooks that are totally honest about their crookedness.

No, it wouldn't (just think about it for a minute.)

That's the whole problem with these sorts of proposals.

The currency would still be fungible for the set of all honest participants that only dealt with other honest people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungibility

It would be the death of Bitcoin (or any currency).

How about a system where each bitcoin is valued based on how much you personally trust each person (wallet) that has ever held it? If everybody did this, that would make us a lot more discerning about who we dealt with, wouldn't it?

I'd like to see a situation where Bernie Bitoff may steal all the bitcoins, but they would not buy even one pair of alpaca socks.

Additionally, just because we have an anonymous service, doesn't mean we should primarily use it anonymously. The best members of this community reveal exactly who they are. The power of an anonymity service is that at any moment you could "go dark." However operating in the dark is a lot like being in an underwater submarine versus one that has been surfaced. Everything you do becomes a little more difficult.

What do you expect from a religious nutjob

He once said LTC is a plot to take BTC from the fools. What if BTC is a plot to take USD from the fools 

However, him killing CLC was a top job in my book and I respect him for killing that scam and BTC development.

If you understood what "slander" is, instead of trying to use big words to express your indignation that somebody might actually question if the emperor is clothed or not, you would know that what I have stated is opinion, and a very public statement of a possible alternate background for what is going on in this circumstance. That is not, and never would be considered, slander. Your histrionics to the contrary, you have established a very significant body of work in this community, much of it laudable and to be commended, but tainted with dramatically poor impulse control. I will not divert this topic with a history of your embarrassing moments, but you are one of the very last people that should be casting any stones, your history is filthy with unethical behavior, diversion of others hashing power to serve your own agenda, and a diametric opposition to the spirit of open source when discussing evolution of the basis of this community.

And, you might want to check the TOS for this message forum before you begin to spout off about banning people who disagree with you, or dare to challenge your delusions of godhood. But then I guess "opinions" are just like assholes, everybody has one, and some are more full of crap than others.

I wouldn't call it slander, more of a strong opinion.  You need to chill out.

LOL, yea most TOS have a 'whatever' we decide clause.

You ever see the sign at a Valet parking place that they are not responsible for etc..., etc...?

IT'S a LIE.

You can say one thing, but the courts decide if it is actually what you intended.

Otherwise their would be no need of civil courts. You could just point to TOS and say didn't you read the sign.

From MtGox ToS:



Basically if you use MtGox you agree that they can do to your account or/and money what ever the hell they want.

MTGOX as far as I know take an appropriate response in their Terms of Use. Reception of tainted coins 'might' kick off a AML Identity request. They as far as I know, do not require you to identify where you received coins (nor should you tell them, you should only tell properly Identified LE Officers if you wish). You may be required to identify. The problem there is that you could send coins to everybody at MTGOX forcing the AML requirements on everybody. That might not be good for business. Especially when people are often required to identify multiple times.

I mean seriously MTGOX is requiring tougher rules than Banks. They might as well just become one and get it over with. I can open an account here with a DL and SSN. Some 'illegals' can open accounts here with just a consulate ID and not even be a citizen. Pretty soon, Americans will be using foreign banks overseas for ease of use. Unfortunately many of them won't take US Citizens because of the insane requirements being imposed on them by the FED.

I was more inclined to mean 'other' businesses that use the tactic of freezing and re-claiming coins deemed 'tainted'.

You are right in that the free market should take care of this but the free market also includes the use of lawyers to speed up decisions.

Plus: Think of the unemployment rate and GDP. Imagine all the people that need to be hired and money needing to be spent when lawyers get involved.

That alone might keep organizations from trying 'self help' methods and just wait for LE Inquiries before taking actions.

What happened to the days when Businesses required a warrant to take actions rather than just 'you follow our rules or else' threats?

We need to get back on track to appropriate rules and stop this craziness. Lets start with Lawyers and Lobbyists before we bring out the guns to take the country back.

You know what is sad? The 'terrorists' won on 9/11. They successfully have taken away our Liberties by forcing us to pass the Patriot Act and allowing our government to do anything they want under the guise of National Security.

Prying back that power that was given to them is going to be hard. Bitcoin is a start, to prove the uselessness of the rules.

Yes, censoring the opponent is always a good idea.

No, everything you accuse me of therein is a lie. This degree of slander should really get you banned, IMO.

As it was mine.

Go ahead and illuminate the class then... how exactly did you determine that the coins were stolen, what was the process you took to determine the rightful owner, and explain how having an anonymous "thief" send coins to random people , who then send them to YOU, who claim to be sending them on to somebody else is A) straight-forward; and B) anything other than a mechanism to change the reputation created by external parties concerning these coins.

Ownership, and the transfer of ownership of the results of a hashing algorithm do not constitute a "transaction". Regardless of what popular opinion might say about the means of that transfer, the only "crime" here is the removal of data without permission. If that even happened. There is no documentation that Bitcoinica did not transfer these funds out himself, no proof that you are not the "thief" who has been giving coins to a group of confederates through IRC, no proof that a non-authorized transfer happened at all. Other than the word of a limited circle of insiders who stand to make a considerable amount of gain from manipulating these coins. There is a semi-load of reasonable doubt surrounding this issue, and the very fact of who the players are crying hack for the second time in weeks, and the reputation of the white hats rushing to establish the restitution mechanism adds more to the question of who is zooming who in this matter.

Frankly, given your history of abuse of power, obsessive-compulsive behavior, and irrational attacks I wouldn't trust you to put the coins into the slot in an automatic car wash, much less be the steward of integrity for a quarter of a million dollars worth of funny money. This whole thing reeks of a select few insiders scamming another group of naive players.

And that, Sir, is not slander, that is healthy skepticism and very public doubt concerning your integrity, and the veracity of this story.

No need, if this is something MtGox for example stipulates in their ToS i.e. their contract they will get regulated by their customers taking their business some place else and if they don't they will get sued by their customers for damages. Problem solved.

Exactly my point.

I didn't create a mechanism to "purify" anything. I created a straight-forward method to return the stolen coins to their rightful owner.

It doesn't matter whether the law considers it a financial transaction or not. All that matters is that at least one end of the deal took place within the State's borders.

It's only slander if it is not true. This "clean-up" service is another example of the need of a few, especially the delusional power-hungry do-it-my-way-or-I-will-fucking-kill-you nutburger few, forcing their vision of how the world should be on the rest. You are an accomplice to this alleged theft by creating a mechanism to "purify" these alleged stolen coins.

And let's take a moment to consider the situation here... a site that supposedly loses $200,000 in value in the blink of an eye, is now back mere weeks later claiming that he was mysteriously hacked AGAIN??? This time, "luckily" only $70,000 worth of coins vanished. And the "thief" is magnanimous enough to want to give his filthy lucre away to random souls through IRC? And look, the same clique of dominance-obsessed tools is coming out with the pre-positioned plan to make all of these tainted coins clean again, and we can just make all the loss disappear.

Bullshit.

And you are so wrong on the jurisdictional issue that it isn't even worth educating you on it. Ownership of bitcoin is not a "transaction" in a jurisdictional sense.

Yes, this is when I first came across it. MTGOX froze an account of some poor guy that bought coins off of TH and sent to MTGOX. It seems that a lot of 'tainted' coins came from TH. The unfortunate account holder at MTGOX that received them would bear the punishment if decided to be employed by an individual or company.

I think what might need to happen is to set up a 'legal attack fund' for businesses that resort to 'self help' in freezing coins, accounts, and coins.  You know why real Banks and Exchanges don't freeze and take stolen money back if they deemed something suspicious without a warrant and/or subpoena to do so?  BECAUSE they will get sued into Bankruptcy oblivion.

Maybe that would stop some of this insanity.

Would there be interest in a fund of this sort. We can head over to Legal and set one up with a lawyer.

Exactly. The idea of tainted coins is LUNACY for something like Bitcoin.

MtGox has got us into this shithole with "tainted" money. Well done sirs ! 

As a seller on Bitmit, and in general, I can't do much to prevent people from paying me with "tainted" coins. I can't control who gets to buy my goods. If I do receive a "tainted" payment, what should I do? Refund it? How do I even know it's "tainted". I don't know exactly how Bitmit's escrow service works, but I fear it might "taint" everything if someone would make a payment with "tainted" coins through it.