^^^^^^^
Mining for btc is a form of GAMBLING. Even if you are not solo mining, you are still assuming a number of risks, not the least of which is btc price.
Topic: Spondoolies-Tech vs Bitmain for a larger operation? - page 2. (Read 7821 times)
I am in the exact situation here.
We have a cheap power here with a rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.
I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.
We have a cheap power here with a rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.
I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.
Where are you getting 2 cent kw?
Where are you getting 2 cent kw?
Likely China.
No, it is not China.
It is Sudan, we have a 2 cent power here for industrial activity.
Make your costs lower than anyone else, and you will do better than anyone else. Never forget that mining is a zero sum game. There is only so much pie to go around.
Long term, the only thing that matters is are your costs lower than others. Exact figures don't matter, what matters is can you beat labor and electricty rates that others will locate anywhere in the world to achieve.
I would not be happy about your projected costs, they look bad to me. You need to improve them. Look outside of Ohio.
Where are you getting 2 cent kw?
Likely China.
I am in the exact situation here.
We have a cheap power here with a rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.
I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.
We have a cheap power here with a rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.
I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.
Where are you getting 2 cent kw?
Excellent advice. I have it on good authority that Ohio sucks.
Ha. We already have about 30 people in the office, so that's already covered.
Another observation: Most people seem to just be using wire racks. I'm used to rack-mounted gear, so this is a bit of a change.
Another observation: Most people seem to just be using wire racks. I'm used to rack-mounted gear, so this is a bit of a change.
I tend to lean more on option number 1, but a lot of people prefer option number 2. We call those people "bastards".
Another good way to save money - don't pay employees.
Just to be flippant, does the above mean:
1) Don't hire employees in the first place?
2) Hire them and just don't actually pay them?
Another good way to save money - don't pay employees.
That's 100% the truth ... for the OP , I have 120+ hosted SP20s that I've been mining if you want to try them out. Nothing like skipping DHL Customs
Already have my waybills, but I appreciate the offer.
I'd simplify it even further and take the gamble and headache of difficulty/revenue out of the equation altogether by planning for a total Thash/s output
I do like simplifying things. But I want a good handle on all the unit economics before I start making things easy on myself. That's a great point though.
With my company, we used to break everything down to the cost per transaction. After a few years we realized that logic was flawed as our volume went up exponentially but other costs went up as well. Once we started concentrating on the unit economics of particular business lines, that's when we started making more money.
This is MUCH simpler math. There are only a few factors involved, which is wonderful. There also appears to be much more volatility. That part is also very different.
I've been researching the hell out of this. There seem to be a lot of opinions, based on the costs. Speculation on the market is an interesting factor to add in. This means I'm going to have to form my own opinion from experience ultimately. That's why we're starting with a 11 TH/s setup.
I am in the exact situation here.
We have a cheap power here with a rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.
I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.
We have a cheap power here with a rate of 2 cent per kw, and we are start to build our own farm. When me and my team decide on which gear to go with then at the last step we make a new decision to wait for more 2 months to see what will go on with the new gears that we expect to come out next 2 our 3 months from now.
I advice you to wait a little bit, because it better to have a better deficiency than to be sorry.
Make sure to consider underclockability into total machine life. If the S5 and SP20 are about neck-and-neck when the S5 is at stock and SP20 is already underclocked, consider where the practical volt/clock floor is for each machine. When something reaches breakeven returns, it might be made to run at a more efficient setpoint and hold on longer at reduced returns (but still above operating costs) so the machine with more room to go down in W/GH would be viable longer. The S1s built 14 months ago can be made to operate as efficiently as a stock Prisma.
I'd simplify it even further and take the gamble and headache of difficulty/revenue out of the equation altogether by planning for a total Thash/s output - a lot of the other numbers will fall into place, and the toss-up depends more on how long you plan to be running the operation (operational costs will make one overtake the other) and what you think you can get for it on the market once you upgrade or shut down.
Korbman: What an incredibly informative and thoughtful post. I appreciate it! I'd already started factoring quite a bit of that, so another "set of eyes" on this is appreciated.
I'm always happy to help where I can, and I'm glad you found my post informative. Mining on a larger scale tends to be vastly more complex than most people realize, and while I'm sure you know that, I still try to point out some "things to think about" for anyone else reading the forums.
I'd come up with similar numbers built using an excel sheet that I've been hobbling together over the last week. I'm used to dealing with headcounts, salaries, project scopes and timelines....getting down and dirty with the most basic of economics is a refreshing change.
Not sure if you've started doing this yet, but what I've always tried to do is to simplify *everything* down to what it costs per kWh (employee hourly rates, space rental, cooling...really any reoccurring expense) and add it to your electricity costs. The idea being to create an all encompassing expense, an example being $0.08 per kWh ($0.03 to cover monthly rent, monitoring, and maintenance + $0.05 for the raw electrical rate). I've found this usually helps when making difficulty and revenue predictions (among other things).
Other than that, my biggest question comes down to depreciation...and this is something I'm also asking the other experienced miners / veterans (both to help with my models and with CptTripps' setup). Is there a standard depreciation method you use for your hardware, or do you typically just run the equipment until it's no longer valued at anything (ending its useful life)?
it's very difficult to figure out depreciation because it depends on the BTC price in $$, euro, etc..
Example: even the smallest piece of gear increased in price 3-10 fold in December of 2013 because BTC priced moved from $130 to $1200 in a space of 2-3 months.
Korbman: What an incredibly informative and thoughtful post. I appreciate it! I'd already started factoring quite a bit of that, so another "set of eyes" on this is appreciated.
I'm always happy to help where I can, and I'm glad you found my post informative. Mining on a larger scale tends to be vastly more complex than most people realize, and while I'm sure you know that, I still try to point out some "things to think about" for anyone else reading the forums.
I'd come up with similar numbers built using an excel sheet that I've been hobbling together over the last week. I'm used to dealing with headcounts, salaries, project scopes and timelines....getting down and dirty with the most basic of economics is a refreshing change.
Not sure if you've started doing this yet, but what I've always tried to do is to simplify *everything* down to what it costs per kWh (employee hourly rates, space rental, cooling...really any reoccurring expense) and add it to your electricity costs. The idea being to create an all encompassing expense, an example being $0.08 per kWh ($0.03 to cover monthly rent, monitoring, and maintenance + $0.05 for the raw electrical rate). I've found this usually helps when making difficulty and revenue predictions (among other things).
Other than that, my biggest question comes down to depreciation...and this is something I'm also asking the other experienced miners / veterans (both to help with my models and with CptTripps' setup). Is there a standard depreciation method you use for your hardware, or do you typically just run the equipment until it's no longer valued at anything (ending its useful life)?
If you're looking at 120 PSUs outputting S5-range power (say, 600W) 100W per PSU is the difference between a 93% efficient quality unit and an 80% piece of junk. Hopefully the range of options you look at don't have that much range.
The difference between 93% and 90% at a 2KW output from a big fat PSU is about 72W per PSU.
The difference between 93% and 90% at a 2KW output from a big fat PSU is about 72W per PSU.
If you are serious about building an operation at the scale you mentioned earlier you could certainly improve your power choices, you are taking a capital and 10-15% efficiency hit with what you choose.. If you are going to scale it up there are much better options...
That's an excellent point.
I'm going to look at the PSUs that I already have, but more efficient choices could make a big difference at this scale. A 100w difference per PSU would add up to 12,000W diff at the end.
If you are serious about building an operation at the scale you mentioned earlier you could certainly improve your power choices, you are taking a capital and 10-15% efficiency hit with what you choose.. If you are going to scale it up there are much better options...
For example I pulled together a build in a US data center for a customer last fall, about 150Th/s.. Coincidentally I was deploying within a week of one of Bitmain's US deployments (they have a few) and deployed the power for about 10K less in capital, and used 12% less power.. So much of a difference the data center execs came to me to help invalidate Bitmain's claims power wasn't being measured correctly.. Sure enough the PSUs Bitmain choose were poor..
For example I pulled together a build in a US data center for a customer last fall, about 150Th/s.. Coincidentally I was deploying within a week of one of Bitmain's US deployments (they have a few) and deployed the power for about 10K less in capital, and used 12% less power.. So much of a difference the data center execs came to me to help invalidate Bitmain's claims power wasn't being measured correctly.. Sure enough the PSUs Bitmain choose were poor..
Looking at the Hashcoins Uranus is interesting...gotta run the numbers on that one too.
Ack, no!!! Don't waste your time. There are no options outside of Bitmain and Spondoolies. None.
That's 100% the truth ... for the OP , I have 120+ hosted SP20s that I've been mining if you want to try them out. Nothing like skipping DHL Customs
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