Pages:
Author

Topic: Spotting a sociopath (Read 6508 times)

hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 513
January 17, 2013, 01:07:38 PM
#46
Quote
The term empathy is currently applied to more than a half-dozen phenomena. These phenomena are related to one another, but they are not elements, aspects, facets, or components of a single thing that is empathy
The Social Neuroscience of Empathy
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
January 17, 2013, 05:13:56 AM
#45
BTW memvola I don't appreciate being associated with eugenicists simply because I am discussing the possibility of such technology existing. I at no point made any suggestions that such technology should be applied to society, only argued that it is possible and the technology exists. Learning about something is not the same as supporting it. Please grow up.

Equivalently, I never said you suggested it (and abortion is not necessarily related to eugenics). I just wanted to show you what kind of picture this all invokes. If sociopaths indeed exist and are such a menace to society (they can't be beneficial but can be very harmful) and you can easily detect them as you say, why not act preemptively?

You can (and I think should) abort a fetus if you know it has Down's syndrome, why not if you know it has sociopathy? I don't think this is an unreasonable question.

They can invoke empathy in various ways and gauge response or lack there of and compare to the general population.

Define empathy first and then how you invoke it. As I said, after you make a bazillion assumptions about things that are even philosophically vague, it's not surprising to see what you are hoping to see. I understand that you can get repeatable patterns. The problem is in the interpretation, which is also what is unscientific.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
January 16, 2013, 11:35:27 PM
#44
...
You two have a serious misunderstanding of what a sociopath is at their core. The number of sociopaths walking around is debatable, but what is a fact is that they ARE wired differently than what most would call "normal" people. They in fact are incapable of empathy, even on a theoretical level they just don't get it.

How do you know this 'fact'? I've been doing a bit of personal research lately regarding things like "the hard problem of consciousness", and it seems it's impossible to definitively prove that anyone (other than yourself) has empathy or other feelings. Consciousness has not been scientifically proven to exist at all, even though we intuitively know it exists, and the same can be argued for 'qualia' such as various feelings.

OK, it seems plausible that the same way some people are red/green colour-blind, other people might have other things such as empathy missing. But even such a comparison seems weak. Although eyes can be physically tested and brains can be imaged, such tests say nothing about what blue is for you, and they say nothing about the mind's ability to see colour with the available hardware. And unlike colour tests which simply test the hardware, it seems that in the field of psychology they're boldly attempting to measure the mind itself. Besides, isn't the brain supposed to be an expert at learning and constantly re-wiring itself?

Quote
This is a mistake I see so often, and it is quite frustrating because sociopaths know this is a common misconception and they utilize it to be better at being sociopaths. Depending on circumstance they may be more or less destructive to those around them, but from birth they simply learn to be proficient mimics of emotional states so as to appear normal to everyone else. Some times they are SO good at it you could be around one for years and not even know it.
What if the world is filled with philosophical zombies, and you're the only one who is really 'alive'? How would you ever know for sure?

Quote
...by definition they try to blend in to their surroundings. Any psychologist will tell you a sociopaths worst fear is being exposed for what they are.

What? People react badly when they're told they're somehow deeply flawed in a way that's invisible to them, it's permanent, and there's nothing they can do about it?

You know how they know what "blue is for you"? They show you blue and measure your response showing a repeatable pattern of brain activity. The same can be done for neuromapping. They can invoke empathy in various ways and gauge response or lack there of and compare to the general population. I think most people would be surprised how accurate this kind of technology is getting now. 

BTW memvola I don't appreciate being associated with eugenicists simply because I am discussing the possibility of such technology existing. I at no point made any suggestions that such technology should be applied to society, only argued that it is possible and the technology exists. Learning about something is not the same as supporting it. Please grow up.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
January 16, 2013, 08:16:39 PM
#43
I dunno. People can act weird under weird circumstances. Spot the sociopaths:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd7dxmBLg48

Seriously? You just enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing admit it. I don't know what a video of a decades old disaster is supposed to be evidence of, but if you want to spot a sociopath, it helps if you actually know them. I am not sure what your video bait is supposed to be used for here, but I am not biting.

I think it was totally relevant to this thread. It is called "Spotting a Sociopath", and the idea was put out there you could spot them by the looks on their faces soon after a tragedy. There is a good video to see a range of responses from people soon after a tragedy. Not sure why it was taken as arguing. I was just trying to provide relevant info to the discussion.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 1002
January 16, 2013, 08:55:48 AM
#42
You two have a serious misunderstanding of what a sociopath is at their core. The number of sociopaths walking around is debatable, but what is a fact is that they ARE wired differently than what most would call "normal" people.  They in fact are incapable of empathy, even on a theoretical level they just don't get it.

I think the more serious misunderstanding is about what empathy is.

When you make countless assumptions about a term so ill defined, it's very likely to reach a conclusion you already was reaching for. That's why social sciences fail miserably, and where you can draw the limits of neuroscience.

How do I know this? EEG and active MRI technology now enables anyone with the correct equipment and training to demonstrate which areas of the brain are active during specific activities designed to activate target brain areas while under observation. Now I don't think people should walk around suspecting everyone of being a sociopath, but it is important to note that by definition they try to blend in to their surroundings.

Why suspect? Don't you claim that we already can know? Let's kill them when they are only a fetus, shall we?

ETA: Aren't autistic people also psychopaths "scientifically"?
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
January 16, 2013, 08:54:36 AM
#41

Why is a clinical diagnosis of sociopath necessary?


Shouldn't the matter of most concern be a person's impact on society?  So, I would prefer the idea of 'functional sociopath.'  To the degree that a person is opportunistic in self serving ways might be proportional to this idea.


Using the idea of functional sociopathy a much greater amount of the population can be indicted for spreading misery.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
January 16, 2013, 08:51:28 AM
#40
I dunno. People can act weird under weird circumstances. Spot the sociopaths:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd7dxmBLg48

Seriously? You just enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing admit it. I don't know what a video of a decades old disaster is supposed to be evidence of, but if you want to spot a sociopath, it helps if you actually know them. I am not sure what your video bait is supposed to be used for here, but I am not biting.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
January 16, 2013, 08:13:11 AM
#39
I dunno. People can act weird under weird circumstances. Spot the sociopaths:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd7dxmBLg48
Interesting video. Most are in denial. Some are also teachers with the students of her class, putting up a smile not to scare them.

I watched it live broadcasted  too in 1986, and wondering if the main tank had separated early and the shuttle continued unpowered in a glide, which would be hard to spot.

Ground spectators have no info besides what they see, Better not be the first to scream.

When they retreived the wreckage from the florida sumps, a few days later, some were still hoping.

hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
January 16, 2013, 07:45:11 AM
#38
I dunno. People can act weird under weird circumstances. Spot the sociopaths:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd7dxmBLg48
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
January 16, 2013, 07:22:32 AM
#37
Yeah lying is part of it but they don't always manifest as compulsive liars, I find more often than not they use lies more like a tool to an end rather than a method of self gratification. One thing I did find telling was how they react to people being seriously injured. If you can get a look at their face without being too obvious the very moment they see something revoltingly violent, some times you can catch a weird creepy smirk. It looks a little like this...
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1076
January 16, 2013, 07:14:57 AM
#36

Not sure what is the exact difference between a sociopath and a psychopath, but here is a funny video about psychopaths:

Is Lance Armstrong a Psychopath?  You be the Judge
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
January 16, 2013, 07:08:03 AM
#35
I don't mean this personally either, but IMO refuting ANY argument just because it comes from people in or associated with the medical industry in anyway is equally as ignorant as believing anything they say.

Agreed 100% what matters is the data, methods, and logic of the inference. Anyway this thread is OT now...

For those who suspect you know, knew a sociopath, how long did it take you to come to that conclusion? The main giveaway is usually lying, which in my experience, takes about 2 years to really realize.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1009
January 16, 2013, 07:07:39 AM
#34
This isn't something they learned, it was something they were BORN with. How do I know this? EEG and active MRI technology now enables anyone with the correct equipment and training to demonstrate which areas of the brain are active during specific activities designed to activate target brain areas while under observation.
They are born with a susceptibility to sociopathy, but it requires environmental triggers to manifest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx8RxRn6dWU

James Fallon was born with the brain of a sociopath but didn't become one due not experiencing the environmental triggers during early childhood.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
January 16, 2013, 07:04:32 AM
#33
I don't mean this personally either, but IMO refuting ANY argument just because it comes from people in or associated with the medical industry in anyway is equally as ignorant as believing anything they say.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
January 16, 2013, 06:53:57 AM
#32
....


+1
I've met people who check all the right boxes: chronic/compulsive lying, making up fantasies, charming, sometimes anti-social behaviour, careless about others... If they're like that when they're old and grey, it's probably too late, but I've actually seen someone (mostly) grow out of it due to proper family support and a willingness to change. I don't believe in the fad that there's a "psycho lurking around every corner", that it's "1 out of 25 people" and all that bullshit.

Instead, what I see are excuses. A tiny minority might indeed have some diagnosable mental 'anomaly' that makes them incapable of feeling empathy. For the most part, I'm guessing your garden-variety corporate/political psychopath is likely to have been a spoilt child who always "got away with murder" unpunished. How can people develop certain connections in their brain if they grew up never needing them??

Part of the problem as I see it, is a profit-driven medical industry that wants to define as many disorders as possible so there's something for everyone. More disorders = more drugs, more funding, more hypochondriacs, more gullible parents wanting to fix their problematic kids... more profit!


It is true that is an issue with trusting data from pharmaceutical companies. It would be a mistake, however, to automatically trust data from academia where there are huge pressures to "get significant results", and worse, more and more often you see researchers apologizing in their papers when they do not prove their hypothesis true.

If a grad student just started a family or needs to pay medical bills or something like that, it should go in the conflicts of interest just the same as if they got paid by a pharm company.
Quote
An early experimental study by Mahoney8 is a particularly striking example of how researchers’ bias can influence their behaviour. Reviewers were asked to referee manuscripts, all of which had identical methodology but reported different results. Reviewers were strongly biased against manuscripts that reported results that contradicted their own theoretical perspectives. This can have a deleterious effect as ideas that have long since been contradicted can persist in the literature.9,10 Researchers’ biases caused by preference for their own ideas can cause a serious COI when they present their own work and when they are involved in any aspect of peer review. Nonetheless, much more attention is paid to COIs owing to external influences such as money than to COIs related to researchers’ inherent biases.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2783432/

We have had discussions in the past relating to the medical industry and you know very well I don't simply blindly trust anything some one with a PHD says as fact. In fact I have a severe distrust for the medical industry as a whole. I have been closely monitoring technology relating to the mind for many years because I find it extremely interesting. I have through my experience seen many technological developments that in my own opinion as some dude on the internet, leads me to believe that this type of thing is possible. There are many sources you can find on the internet supporting and refusing my conclusions. I am not a doctor and I doubt anyone here is, so we could all stand here arguing and trying to prove each other wrong, or maybe we could just learn for ourselves if we care so much.

I didn't mean it as anything personal, or even really to critique your argument. I just feel the need to counter anything that appears to accept scientific literature as authoritative because I've learned first hand there there are all these huge systemic problems that need not be there if people just changed their attitudes.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
January 16, 2013, 06:51:10 AM
#31

You two have a serious misunderstanding of what a sociopath is at their core. The number of sociopaths walking around is debatable, but what is a fact is that they ARE wired differently than what most would call "normal" people.  They in fact are incapable of empathy, even on a theoretical level they just don't get it. This is a mistake I see so often, and it is quite frustrating because sociopaths know this is a common misconception and they utilize it to be better at being sociopaths. Depending on circumstance they may be more or less destructive to those around them, but from birth they simply learn to be proficient mimics of emotional states so as to appear normal to everyone else. Some times they are SO good at it you could be around one for years and not even know it.

 This isn't something they learned, it was something they were BORN with. How do I know this? EEG and active MRI technology now enables anyone with the correct equipment and training to demonstrate which areas of the brain are active during specific activities designed to activate target brain areas while under observation. Now I don't think people should walk around suspecting everyone of being a sociopath, but it is important to note that by definition they try to blend in to their surroundings. Any psychologist will tell you a sociopaths worst fear is being exposed for what they are.


I don't know enough to argue particulars but most mri results published are much more questionable then they at first appear. Even moreso than most science, there are numerous steps in the process that allow researchers to introduce bias.  Here is an abstract coming from the first page of a google search for "mri analysis":

[quote]Obtaining reliable data and drawing meaningful and robust inferences from diffusion MRI can be challenging and is subject to many pitfalls. The process of quantifying diffusion indices and eventually comparing them between groups of subjects and/or correlating them with other parameters starts at the acquisition of the raw data, followed by a long pipeline of image processing steps. Each one of these steps is susceptible to sources of bias, which may not only limit the accuracy and precision, but can lead to substantial errors.
This article provides a detailed review of the steps along the analysis pipeline and their associated pitfalls. These are grouped into 1 pre-processing of data; 2 estimation of the tensor; 3 derivation of voxelwise quantitative parameters; 4 strategies for extracting quantitative parameters; and finally 5 intra-subject and inter-subject comparison, including region of interest, histogram, tract-specific and voxel-based analyses. The article covers important aspects of diffusion MRI analysis, such as motion correction, susceptibility and eddy current distortion correction, model fitting, region of interest placement, histogram and voxel-based analysis. We have assembled 25 pitfalls (several previously unreported) into a single article, which should serve as a useful reference for those embarking on new diffusion MRI-based studies, and as a check for those who may already be running studies but may have overlooked some important confounds. While some of these problems are well known to diffusion experts, they might not be to other researchers wishing to undertake a clinical study based on diffusion MRI.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20886566

My point is that modern scientific culture systematically underestimates uncertainty, and thus anything that comes out of it should be questioned rather than taken as fact.


 Right because they don't know what the fuck they're talking about . There isn't even any evidence the mind itself is a brain. Or the brain is the mind  ..  There is no sound evidence for that . That's why they can't fucking fix anything . If you Knew really how things worked you would be able to do something about  it you would be able to fix things understand things solve things. Just like the banking world are fraudsters its really not that hard to concieve that the elites of the mental health field are fraudsters.  

Here is my current timeline (under construction):
Edward Bernays -> Sigmond Freud Popularity -> Psychoanalysis + WW2 -> NIH funding starts skyrocketing -> Govt needs metrics by which to choose who to fund -> Null hypothesis testing accepted as the gold standard -> Science getting crappier and crappier

http://officeofbudget.od.nih.gov/approp_hist.html

Now that isn't to say we know nothing about the brain...
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 1958
First Exclusion Ever
January 16, 2013, 06:46:55 AM
#30
....


+1
I've met people who check all the right boxes: chronic/compulsive lying, making up fantasies, charming, sometimes anti-social behaviour, careless about others... If they're like that when they're old and grey, it's probably too late, but I've actually seen someone (mostly) grow out of it due to proper family support and a willingness to change. I don't believe in the fad that there's a "psycho lurking around every corner", that it's "1 out of 25 people" and all that bullshit.

Instead, what I see are excuses. A tiny minority might indeed have some diagnosable mental 'anomaly' that makes them incapable of feeling empathy. For the most part, I'm guessing your garden-variety corporate/political psychopath is likely to have been a spoilt child who always "got away with murder" unpunished. How can people develop certain connections in their brain if they grew up never needing them??

Part of the problem as I see it, is a profit-driven medical industry that wants to define as many disorders as possible so there's something for everyone. More disorders = more drugs, more funding, more hypochondriacs, more gullible parents wanting to fix their problematic kids... more profit!


It is true that is an issue with trusting data from pharmaceutical companies. It would be a mistake, however, to automatically trust data from academia where there are huge pressures to "get significant results", and worse, more and more often you see researchers apologizing in their papers when they do not prove their hypothesis true.

If a grad student just started a family or needs to pay medical bills or something like that, it should go in the conflicts of interest just the same as if they got paid by a pharm company.
Quote
An early experimental study by Mahoney8 is a particularly striking example of how researchers’ bias can influence their behaviour. Reviewers were asked to referee manuscripts, all of which had identical methodology but reported different results. Reviewers were strongly biased against manuscripts that reported results that contradicted their own theoretical perspectives. This can have a deleterious effect as ideas that have long since been contradicted can persist in the literature.9,10 Researchers’ biases caused by preference for their own ideas can cause a serious COI when they present their own work and when they are involved in any aspect of peer review. Nonetheless, much more attention is paid to COIs owing to external influences such as money than to COIs related to researchers’ inherent biases.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2783432/

We have had discussions in the past relating to the medical industry and you know very well I don't simply blindly trust anything some one with a PHD says as fact. In fact I have a severe distrust for the medical industry as a whole. I have been closely monitoring technology relating to the mind for many years because I find it extremely interesting. I have through my experience seen many technological developments that in my own opinion as some dude on the internet, leads me to believe that this type of thing is possible. There are many sources you can find on the internet supporting and refusing my conclusions. I am not a doctor and I doubt anyone here is, so we could all stand here arguing and trying to prove each other wrong, or maybe we could just learn for ourselves if we care so much.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
January 16, 2013, 06:45:51 AM
#29

My point is that modern scientific culture systematically underestimates uncertainty, and thus anything that comes out of it should be questioned rather than taken as fact.


 ...........................................................
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
January 16, 2013, 06:42:12 AM
#28

You two have a serious misunderstanding of what a sociopath is at their core. The number of sociopaths walking around is debatable, but what is a fact is that they ARE wired differently than what most would call "normal" people.  They in fact are incapable of empathy, even on a theoretical level they just don't get it. This is a mistake I see so often, and it is quite frustrating because sociopaths know this is a common misconception and they utilize it to be better at being sociopaths. Depending on circumstance they may be more or less destructive to those around them, but from birth they simply learn to be proficient mimics of emotional states so as to appear normal to everyone else. Some times they are SO good at it you could be around one for years and not even know it.

 This isn't something they learned, it was something they were BORN with. How do I know this? EEG and active MRI technology now enables anyone with the correct equipment and training to demonstrate which areas of the brain are active during specific activities designed to activate target brain areas while under observation. Now I don't think people should walk around suspecting everyone of being a sociopath, but it is important to note that by definition they try to blend in to their surroundings. Any psychologist will tell you a sociopaths worst fear is being exposed for what they are.


I don't know enough to argue particulars but most mri results published are much more questionable then they at first appear. Even moreso than most science, there are numerous steps in the process that allow researchers to introduce bias.  Here is an abstract coming from the first page of a google search for "mri analysis":

[quote]Obtaining reliable data and drawing meaningful and robust inferences from diffusion MRI can be challenging and is subject to many pitfalls. The process of quantifying diffusion indices and eventually comparing them between groups of subjects and/or correlating them with other parameters starts at the acquisition of the raw data, followed by a long pipeline of image processing steps. Each one of these steps is susceptible to sources of bias, which may not only limit the accuracy and precision, but can lead to substantial errors.
This article provides a detailed review of the steps along the analysis pipeline and their associated pitfalls. These are grouped into 1 pre-processing of data; 2 estimation of the tensor; 3 derivation of voxelwise quantitative parameters; 4 strategies for extracting quantitative parameters; and finally 5 intra-subject and inter-subject comparison, including region of interest, histogram, tract-specific and voxel-based analyses. The article covers important aspects of diffusion MRI analysis, such as motion correction, susceptibility and eddy current distortion correction, model fitting, region of interest placement, histogram and voxel-based analysis. We have assembled 25 pitfalls (several previously unreported) into a single article, which should serve as a useful reference for those embarking on new diffusion MRI-based studies, and as a check for those who may already be running studies but may have overlooked some important confounds. While some of these problems are well known to diffusion experts, they might not be to other researchers wishing to undertake a clinical study based on diffusion MRI.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20886566

My point is that modern scientific culture systematically underestimates uncertainty, and thus anything that comes out of it should be questioned rather than taken as fact.


[/quote] Right because they don't know what the fuck they're talking about . There isn't even any evidence the mind itself is a brain. Or the brain is the mind  ..  There is no sound evidence for that . That's why they can't fucking fix anything . If you Knew really how things worked you would be able to do something about  it you would be able to fix things understand things solve things. Just like the banking world are fraudsters its really not that hard to concieve that the elites of the mental health field are fraudsters.  
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
January 16, 2013, 06:35:30 AM
#27
....


+1
I've met people who check all the right boxes: chronic/compulsive lying, making up fantasies, charming, sometimes anti-social behaviour, careless about others... If they're like that when they're old and grey, it's probably too late, but I've actually seen someone (mostly) grow out of it due to proper family support and a willingness to change. I don't believe in the fad that there's a "psycho lurking around every corner", that it's "1 out of 25 people" and all that bullshit.

Instead, what I see are excuses. A tiny minority might indeed have some diagnosable mental 'anomaly' that makes them incapable of feeling empathy. For the most part, I'm guessing your garden-variety corporate/political psychopath is likely to have been a spoilt child who always "got away with murder" unpunished. How can people develop certain connections in their brain if they grew up never needing them??

Part of the problem as I see it, is a profit-driven medical industry that wants to define as many disorders as possible so there's something for everyone. More disorders = more drugs, more funding, more hypochondriacs, more gullible parents wanting to fix their problematic kids... more profit!


It is true that is an issue with trusting data from pharmaceutical companies. It would be a mistake, however, to automatically trust data from academia where there are huge pressures to "get significant results", and worse, more and more often you see researchers apologizing in their papers when they do not prove their hypothesis true.

If a grad student just started a family or needs to pay medical bills or something like that, it should go in the conflicts of interest just the same as if they got paid by a pharm company.
Quote
An early experimental study by Mahoney8 is a particularly striking example of how researchers’ bias can influence their behaviour. Reviewers were asked to referee manuscripts, all of which had identical methodology but reported different results. Reviewers were strongly biased against manuscripts that reported results that contradicted their own theoretical perspectives. This can have a deleterious effect as ideas that have long since been contradicted can persist in the literature.9,10 Researchers’ biases caused by preference for their own ideas can cause a serious COI when they present their own work and when they are involved in any aspect of peer review. Nonetheless, much more attention is paid to COIs owing to external influences such as money than to COIs related to researchers’ inherent biases.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2783432/
Pages:
Jump to: