Standard practice for online Casinos going under - how are cash outs handled? - page 2.

coin-investor

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on July 26, 2024, 05:39:23 PM

It got me wondering , what is standard practice for closing an online casino and what laws (if any) must be followed when doing so? Is there a such thing as “international casino laws” ? (Probably a ridiculous question but had to ask anyhow)

You cannot find guidelines and procedures on any casino's terms. Even the government will not monitor or interfere; it is really at the discretion of the casino how they will proceed with withdrawals when they are closing out. So, it always goes down on the reputation of the casino. Some casinos will just close shop and scam their players. You are good if they allow you to withdraw your funds if there are left.

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With luckybit, it was a shady exit. What’s crazy is the casino closure was announced on Jan 19th & users had until just Jan 31st to withdraw balances (even worse some balances were ineligible for withdraw , such as a .001btc balance and below ..and apparently even if you tried to make a deposit to top off your balance to qualify for a full withdrawal, it was seemingly not allowed).

It really is shady, so in case they want to make a comeback, people will not support them, but it's their rule and their terms. How they proceed with the withdrawal is tantamount to selective scamming.

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So what happens today if your Casino announces a closure? Do some casinos have some sort of “deposit offloading” where funds can sit and wait to be redeemed for an extended period of time? Are there any current “standard practices” to abide by?
This casino deep dive had me thinking all the above out loud and wanted to discuss ..

The right rule and accepted one is letting all players withdraw their funds without any requirement but if they want to still make a profit while they are closing down, they will set up rules for the majority of players to make them fail to withdraw their funds.

ryzaadit

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Quote from: Lida93 on July 27, 2024, 10:46:24 AM

For a gambler to be too busy not to find not more than 20mins for days forgetting to making withdrawal of a bunch of winnings (not single win) in their gambling account, such scenario only explains one thing for me, which is that, the gambler has so much to his name already and that bunch in the account is some money they already can afford to lose.

Still not buying these

Quote from: Lida93 on July 27, 2024, 10:46:24 AM

I have also find out that many forum members are quite more comfortable leaving their money stay as long as possible in their gambling account than they will do with CEX but they are forgetting one thing that these companies are both centralized and they share same risk nature.

From where did you get those claim?

The no such proof, people in the forum have more comfortable storing their money in casino. Even there has some things called vault, there always have 2 scenario. You withdraw the money you win or losing all of your deposit money.

Gambler, I believe 99% never leave money in casino. Even they're not withdraw the crypto they have, at least they will withdraw to personal wallet and just do (deposit-witdhraw-deposit withdraw) rather than leaving the money in casino.

Ultegra134

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on July 27, 2024, 10:53:15 AM

I do not think there would be a lawsuit about this. I have not heard of any yet. Mt. Gox is different because the money was stolen after the hacker was able to hack the exchange. But about what OP is asking, not that anything bad happened to the gambling site but the site just want to close down. We have seen many exchanges that does this and gave their users specific date to withdraw their coins. Agoradesk and Localmonero did something like that recently when they are closing down. If any user do not withdraw their coins, they may lose the coins unless the amount is so huge that someone filed a lawsuit against the site. And I think the lawsuit may only be considered for the person and not the general masses. But this would depend on what the lawsuit is about.

You're right; perhaps my example wasn't exactly on point; they're two completely different cases. I was just referring to the fact that the compensation of the Mt. Gox victims took years of negotiations and lawsuits till a verdict was reached; perhaps something similar could occur if it were for a casino to abruptly close without providing the ability to withdraw their funds. The casino the OP mentioned simply shut down; maybe it wasn't as profitable as they initially hoped or they didn't want to bother maintaining it anymore. If you ask me, the timeframe they allowed their users to withdraw was very limited, as someone might have missed reading the announcements.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on July 27, 2024, 10:25:54 AM

I don't think there's any standard procedure when it comes to these things; I believe it's up to the casinos if they're willing to let their users cash out or not. Certainly, they might end up with lawsuits, but it's not guaranteed that they'll come up with an effective solution to compensate their users; it'll also be a lengthy process, as seen with Mt. Gox.

I do not think there would be a lawsuit about this. I have not heard of any yet. Mt. Gox is different because the money was stolen after the hacker was able to hack the exchange. But about what OP is asking, not that anything bad happened to the gambling site but the site just want to close down. We have seen many exchanges that does this and gave their users specific date to withdraw their coins. Agoradesk and Localmonero did something like that recently when they are closing down. If any user do not withdraw their coins, they may lose the coins unless the amount is so huge that someone filed a lawsuit against the site. And I think the lawsuit may only be considered for the person and not the general masses. But this would depend on what the lawsuit is about.

Lida93

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Quote from: ralle14 on July 26, 2024, 07:07:50 PM

Quote from: ryzaadit on July 26, 2024, 05:55:38 PM

Other things want to mention, which idiot who are storing funds in some casino? casino is not exchange/wallet (most people should deposit and withdraw) immediately after they finish the section gambling. These case only can be face, for some guy who are storing their money in casino.

Storing money in casino should be a crime, and people who do these need to go jail Grin

There are a bunch of situations where gamblers can easily forget their gambling money for quite a while and let it sit in their account. In my case, I had a bunch of winnings together with my deposit sitting around in my account back then for a few weeks because of my luck from winning a promotion or raffle. People can quickly become busy so we can't blame them if they still have money sitting at their gambling accounts.

For a gambler to be too busy not to find not more than 20mins for days forgetting to making withdrawal of a bunch of winnings (not single win) in their gambling account, such scenario only explains one thing for me, which is that, the gambler has so much to his name already and that bunch in the account is some money they already can afford to lose.

I have also find out that many forum members are quite more comfortable leaving their money stay as long as possible in their gambling account than they will do with CEX but they are forgetting one thing that these companies are both centralized and they share same risk nature. I take pride in withdrawing my winnings to my wallet immediately I stop my gambling sessions.

If I could make time to gambling that long I should also make time for withdrawal, right?

Ultegra134

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I don't think there's any standard procedure when it comes to these things; I believe it's up to the casinos if they're willing to let their users cash out or not. Certainly, they might end up with lawsuits, but it's not guaranteed that they'll come up with an effective solution to compensate their users; it'll also be a lengthy process, as seen with Mt. Gox.

Fortunately, in the case the OP presented, their users were allowed to withdraw their balances until a specific date. Is it 100% fair? Certainly not, as some were left behind, but I believe we've seen plenty of scam examples that prove that this incident wasn't as bad as it might sound.

Woodie

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I don't think there is a standard to follow especially for crypto based services, but from what I have experienced & seen from the recent closure of Maverick Games , or our old timer Directbet and other casino's/sportsbook it all starts with conveying the message to all your clients through the website, emails and social media channels...and btw closure can be immediate but withdraw of funds is usually given a window of 2weeks to a couple of months and after this open window closes all funds that aren't withdrawn remain the property of the casino/Book and I believe to avoid any legal liability this is most likely to be written in their terms of service which many of us agree to without reading Tongue

So withdraw window is most likely to be guided by the T&C's of the service..

Findingnemo

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If I am not wrong casinos decides how and what amount is eligible for withdrawal and there is no legal body can question them since they mentioned about this in their terms under fine prints so my suggestion will be never keep too much money on casino wallets especially if you are taking a break from gambling same as what we do with exchanges.

Reputed casinos will give enough time to withdraw the remaining balance along with proper notification to the end user via email.

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Quote from: AbuBhakar on July 27, 2024, 06:23:46 AM

Quote from: danherbias07 on July 27, 2024, 04:07:33 AM

However, I am also curious if the same thing will happen if popular gambling sites will suddenly close too. I bet there will be a lot of questions that will be raised and legalities to happen since millions of dollars are coming in and out every day.

I think this will be the standard pattern for online casino closure that wants to exit properly. Mavericks.game use the same method of notifying members for closure with 1 month duration date for withdrawing their funds before the website closed for withdrawal.

But there’s always a case like Betnomi that just disappear without any advance notification to all players. This is the worst case scenario that’s why players should use casino like exchange which you shouldn’t leave your funds.

Remember not your keys not your coins always.

It seems to me that when only one month is given to "close all cases", this is also very close to a scam. I don't think that most players, if they are on vacation or busy with other things, constantly monitor news from different casinos where they are registered. In my opinion, the minimum period for full settlement with clients should be no less than 6 months.

Moreno233

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I don't think there is a global law governing casino operation, each country should have their laws governing gambling which every casino registered in such jurisdiction have to abide by. We have a national lottery commission which govern such operations, so any company operating here will have to get their license.

Quote from: AbuBhakar on July 27, 2024, 06:23:46 AM

Quote from: danherbias07 on July 27, 2024, 04:07:33 AM

However, I am also curious if the same thing will happen if popular gambling sites will suddenly close too. I bet there will be a lot of questions that will be raised and legalities to happen since millions of dollars are coming in and out every day.

I think this will be the standard pattern for online casino closure that wants to exit properly.
Mavericks.game use the same method of notifying members for closure with 1 month duration date for withdrawing their funds before the website closed for withdrawal.

But there’s always a case like Betnomi that just disappear without any advance notification to all players. This is the worst case scenario that’s why players should use casino like exchange which you shouldn’t leave your funds.

Remember not your keys not your coins always.

You have a good point here and even though there is no writing document to this effect, it is a fair way of winding down a casino business because the impact is minimal as everyone will have enough time to withdraw their funds. There might actually be few others who might miss the announcement but those will be in the minority. They can also add the option of returning all balances to the last withdrawal address should the customer fail to withdraw within the closing window.

AbuBhakar

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Quote from: danherbias07 on July 27, 2024, 04:07:33 AM

However, I am also curious if the same thing will happen if popular gambling sites will suddenly close too. I bet there will be a lot of questions that will be raised and legalities to happen since millions of dollars are coming in and out every day.

I think this will be the standard pattern for online casino closure that wants to exit properly. Mavericks.game use the same method of notifying members for closure with 1 month duration date for withdrawing their funds before the website closed for withdrawal.

But there’s always a case like Betnomi that just disappear without any advance notification to all players. This is the worst case scenario that’s why players should use casino like exchange which you shouldn’t leave your funds.

Remember not your keys not your coins always.

ethereumhunter

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If my casino announces a closure, I think they will lets their members to withdraw all of their money to their personal wallet or other wallets. They will gives a time to their members to do that before they shutdown their site so no one will complaint about that. Casino will prepares their balance for their member's withdrawal and they will add money to cover the refunds if the money in the site is not much because that will be their responsibility to their members.

I don't know about the standard practices but I think the casino will gives time to their members to withdraw their money. If they want to have a good name for their business, they will do many things to helps their members to withdraw all of their money from the site. They will not gives difficulty requirements to their members because they must responsible with everything they do with their business.

danherbias07

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I remember when Yolodice closed their shop too, Ethan did the same thing by announcing here in Bitcointalk about closing the business and letting the gamblers and investors withdraw their funds in a certain amount of time. Deposits are closed, if I remember it right. You can only do withdrawals when you enter their page and nothing else can be done.
I have no idea about international news but I guess as long as the gambling site has proof that they cannot continue the business anymore due to bankruptcy or other means, then there's no need for other legalities.
However, I am also curious if the same thing will happen if popular gambling sites will suddenly close too. I bet there will be a lot of questions that will be raised and legalities to happen since millions of dollars are coming in and out every day.

bitbollo

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Well, there are no regulations (unless they are registered in some nation). Each casino can just get his rule since there is nothing they would to comply.
Years ago there was another big casino/bookmaker that closed operations = "Direct Bet".
In this case with Direct Bet there was no deposit on their site (since each bet was placed with a new address for the event). However they informed people many weeks before they were closing and giving back what already placed by gamblers.
Meanwhile they decide also to pay referral... doubling the amount Roll Eyes

Definitely something never seen with many operators taking advantage of no rules situation/anonimity... this site was closing but not only they not made an exit-scam, they were pretty honest and become something legendary....

Coin_trader

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on July 26, 2024, 05:39:23 PM

So what happens today if your Casino announces a closure?

Usually they allow user to withdraw funds or else they shouldn’t announce closure and stick to the classic method of just exit scam out of thin air.

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Do some casinos have some sort of “deposit offloading” where funds can sit and wait to be redeemed for an extended period of time?

I doubt this is the case for the typical casino with Curacao license. Casino can runaway whenever they want since Curacao doesn’t regulate scam casino. There’s no scam casino being punished until now that has Curacao license for doing exit scam.

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Are there any current “standard practices” to abide by?

Never leave funds to a casino account for a long time.

un_rank

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- Jay -

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on July 26, 2024, 05:39:23 PM

With luckybit, it was a shady exit. What’s crazy is the casino closure was announced on Jan 19th & users had until just Jan 31st to withdraw balances

Before we can call it a shady exit, we will need to know what the situation was for those that could not withdraw their funds in the stipulated timeframe. There should be openings for those with their funds left there to be able to reach out and still receive it to their personal wallet. If that was not done and some users were shut out after the time given, it borders on shady, but may not be criminal, meaning they cannot be taken to court for it. Still is enough to give them negative feedback for all it is worth.

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on July 26, 2024, 05:39:23 PM

...(even worse some balances were ineligible for withdraw , such as a .001btc balance and below ..and apparently even if you tried to make a deposit to top off your balance to qualify for a full withdrawal, it was seemingly not allowed).

0.001BTC today is $68, at the time of this incident it was almost half of that. I know of casinos with higher minimum withdrawal. But if they deliberately did not help out users who could not deposit more to get their remaining funds, that is a very shady act.

Today, there are no strong laws preventing something like this. A casino can dance around what regulations we have and cheat users with no repercussion.

- Jay -

Jawhead999

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Yes there are official international casino laws, such as eCOGRA and Gibraltar Gambling License that used in Bet365.

Curacao license is a nothing license, I treat them like a casino without license since there are nothing different.

I have no idea why people leave their funds in the casino, if people forget with their funds, I guess that the amount is low and they don't really care about it.

Quote from: Darker45 on July 26, 2024, 09:09:54 PM

But, of course, casino users are protected by local regulations. The question, however, is whether these legal protections provided by the law are implemented. Surely, Curacao, from which the great majority of crypto casinos are getting their licenses, isn't that strict in seeing to it that casino users are sufficiently protected.

Casino users aren't really protected by local regulations if the country only allows regulated online casinos which have land based casinos operated in the country.

What's funny if gambling is prohibited in their country, but they get scammed from online casinos, they can't do anything. If they report they're being scammed and they can get the money, they will going to jail for broke the laws.

Eternad

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on July 26, 2024, 05:39:23 PM

So what happens today if your Casino announces a closure? Do some casinos have some sort of “deposit offloading” where funds can sit and wait to be redeemed for an extended period of time? Are there any current “standard practices” to abide by?

This casino deep dive had me thinking all the above out loud and wanted to discuss ..

Casino usually set a deadline for claiming since they will have no staff after the closure to handle the refund anymore once it’s exceed to the deadline.

It’s user responsibility to not leave any funds on a casino wallet because it’s not a savings account. So as long that the casino notified all the players in advance about the deadline of withdrawal then it’s user responsibility to withdraw all their funds on time or else they will need to contact the team the hard way since most of the casino owner disappear completely after the closure.

Poker Player

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Usually having a Las Vegas license gives more security than having an online license from a tax haven, but it does not free them from going bankrupt either. If a casino, physical or online, goes bankrupt, it is because there comes a time when it cannot meet its obligations and has more debts than income. Then the creditors end up hopefully collecting part of what they are owed. Although it is also possible that another operator buys the bankrupt business and respects the money that the players had in deposits and could not cash out, as it happened with Full Tilt, and its acquisition by Pokerstars, but it took years.

uneng

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I think it depends on where the casino is registered. If it's registered in a territory with strict rules, users of the platform may appeal to the court against the service. But if it's just an online casino operating informally, there isn't much you can do. There isn't an international common law to reach every corners of the world regards this matter.

In this case you mentioned, to give only 2 weeks for customers to cashout their funds, besides not allowing balances below 100K satoshis to be withdrawn was really a bad move from the casino. They should have given at least a month and allowed everyone to cashout their funds, despite how much they held on the platform (deducting withdrawal fees, of course) at that time.

That is why we shouldn't keep our coins deposited at third party sites for too long. Sites come and go all the time in this crypto industry and there aren't any laws to protect our money from being seized or stolen. If you don't want to risk losing anything, just keep your money in a safe wallet.

Topic: Standard practice for online Casinos going under - how are cash outs handled? - page 2. (Read 273 times)