Steem pyramid scheme revealed - page 47.

Dafar

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dafar consulting

Quote from: AlexGR on August 12, 2016, 05:00:27 PM

I mean, let's say I know you are going to vote anonymint with 80% chance, then my risk is too low. He'll get my upvote quickly to front-run "smooth the whale". Now repeat this with every other whale and their favorite authors, or even comment authors, and you are suddenly milking the curation through automation via a robotic circle-jerk. Humans are pretty "low entropy" in their behavior and it's not gonna get better anytime soon.

Having said that, we are far from being in a totally broken system.

This is why I vote people like heiditravels 30mins to an hr after she blogs, there's never a shortage of whales on those. It's amazing how many people do the same.

I agree with iamnotback that it's hard to form a community when whale votes are the only ones that really count. Every other vote is almost negligible

smooth

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Quote from: AlexGR on August 12, 2016, 05:00:27 PM

Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2016, 04:40:25 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

I don't see anything broken there. That is the whole intent of the 30 minute reverse auction. Voters have to compete by voting earlier and earlier, and by doing so the rewards are shifted to the author. Thus authors who are gaining votes based on track record and reputation are rewarded for it.

If someone votes early expecting there to be later votes, and then there aren't (assume because later more careful voters look at the post and decide it is crap), that vote is wasted. To the extent there is a luck component based on what happens to be seen and what isn't, that will cancel out. Smarter voters will do better. (The luck component -- and didadvantage to people in certain time zones -- will be reduced when the first voting period is put back to 24 hours from 12 hours; that was a bad change IMO.)

At the human voter level this is pretty much it. But once you map whale behavior statistics in relation to authors getting upvotes and have values and correlations like 70-80-90%, then you can automate the upvoting process and start milking the cow.

That's exactly the intent. It's individually milking, yes, but the auction means these rewards are transferred to the author. Once there is less curation decision to be made (because the answer is 70-90% predetermined) then there is little curation reward.

Dan's posts pay about 5% of the normal curation reward. Anonymint's posts pay more, but still less than the full reward that votes on a complete unknown would get. Seems about right to me.

smooth

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Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 05:05:16 PM

Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2016, 04:40:25 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

I don't see anything broken there. That is the whole intent of the 30 minute reverse auction. Voters have to compete by voting earlier and earlier, and by doing so the rewards are shifted to the author. Thus authors who are gaining votes based on track record and reputation are rewarded for it.

Yeah that is my point, it is benefiting me too much, because that huge burst of votes is getting me always into the attention zone where my blogs can at least make it to $300 with one minor whale or a few dolphins. And then reasonably good chance a more significant whale will vote because I am writing about important tech stuff they can appreciate.

That is exactly the intent. You are getting those votes because of consistently good content. I see nothing wrong with that at all. Curation rewards start to disappear in this case because of the earlier and earlier voting. The one actually producing the consistently good content (you) is the one rewarded.

If the content starts to suck, you will lose your audience and stop getting votes, with the same incentives working in reverse. The later votes will disappear and then the earlier votes (which exist because of the later votes) will unwind too.

This, frankly, is exactly what people want in a content source. You can try creating a site where content is completely blind without any labeling of authorship or brand and instead every post has to be individually evaluated in a vacuum, but I'm virtually certain it will fail (except perhaps due to its novelty value as a sort of game).

Quote from: ?? on ??

@smooth, I'll reply after I sleep. Zzzzz.

Huh Huh

I saw a long reply from @smooth, then it disappeared. He must have deleted it.

The formatting sucked, so I'm going to fix that and repost it.

iamnotback

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Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2016, 04:40:25 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

I don't see anything broken there. That is the whole intent of the 30 minute reverse auction. Voters have to compete by voting earlier and earlier, and by doing so the rewards are shifted to the author. Thus authors who are gaining votes based on track record and reputation are rewarded for it.

Yeah that is my point, it is benefiting me too much, because that huge burst of votes is getting me always into the attention zone where my blogs can at least make it to $300 with one minor whale or a few dolphins. And then reasonably good chance a more significant whale will vote because I am writing about important tech stuff they can appreciate.

So it creating a groupthink. They aren't making any curation decision. They are just trusting my skills are reasonably consistent, per my track record.

We can't have relevance without thought. And we can't have successful site without relevance.

My analysis is everything is out-of-whack on Steem and it will fail. I am now about 95% sure of it. Next stage is for me to decide if it can realistically be fixed.

I can't detail all my reasons. I made a short list today upthread. I am very sleepy right now so I can't post very coherently until after I awake.

AlexGR

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Quote from: smooth on August 12, 2016, 04:40:25 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

I don't see anything broken there. That is the whole intent of the 30 minute reverse auction. Voters have to compete by voting earlier and earlier, and by doing so the rewards are shifted to the author. Thus authors who are gaining votes based on track record and reputation are rewarded for it.

If someone votes early expecting there to be later votes, and then there aren't (assume because later more careful voters look at the post and decide it is crap), that vote is wasted. To the extent there is a luck component based on what happens to be seen and what isn't, that will cancel out. Smarter voters will do better. (The luck component -- and didadvantage to people in certain time zones -- will be reduced when the first voting period is put back to 24 hours from 12 hours; that was a bad change IMO.)

At the human voter level this is pretty much it. But once you map whale behavior statistics in relation to authors getting upvotes and have values and correlations like 70-80-90%, then you can automate the upvoting process and start milking the cow.

I mean, let's say I know you are going to vote anonymint with 80% chance, then my risk is too low. He'll get my upvote quickly to front-run "smooth the whale". Now repeat this with every other whale and their favorite authors, or even comment authors, and you are suddenly milking the curation through automation via a robotic circle-jerk. Humans are pretty "low entropy" in their behavior and it's not gonna get better anytime soon.

Having said that, we are far from being in a totally broken system.

Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 03:44:04 PM

Quote from: AlexGR on August 12, 2016, 01:53:37 PM

You do read a lot of threads and comments and spend a lot of time writing comments. A few clicks for upvotes in things that you find nice (in content that you are already engaged in) won't hurt your time schedule.

Btw I do. But I don't have time to keep track of when I am not doing it enough.

It's ok, don't worry about it.

smooth

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Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

I don't see anything broken there. That is the whole intent of the 30 minute reverse auction. Voters have to compete by voting earlier and earlier, and by doing so the rewards are shifted to the author. Thus authors who are gaining votes based on track record and reputation are rewarded for it.

If someone votes early expecting there to be later votes, and then there aren't (assume because later more careful voters look at the post and decide it is crap), that vote is wasted. To the extent there is a luck component based on what happens to be seen and what isn't, that will cancel out. Smarter voters will do better. (The luck component -- and didadvantage to people in certain time zones -- will be reduced when the first voting period is put back to 24 hours from 12 hours; that was a bad change IMO.)

iamnotback

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Quote from: AlexGR on August 12, 2016, 01:53:37 PM

You do read a lot of threads and comments and spend a lot of time writing comments. A few clicks for upvotes in things that you find nice (in content that you are already engaged in) won't hurt your time schedule.

Btw I do. But I don't have time to keep track of when I am not doing it enough.

iamnotback

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To reiterate my recent realization (which I figured would be the case from the get-go):

Quote from: https://steemit.com/steemit/@chitty/whale-s-dilemma#@anonymint/re-chitty-whale-s-dilemma-20160812t194021874z

Quote from: chitty

Steem could hard fork to minimize whale’s power and have a better distribution of the steem token trough a more horizontal voting system.

Sorry I believe the bolded is an impossible option.

The only way would be to change from voting out of a shared pool of debasement to tipping from individual wallets, which is not a viable model.

Sorry IMO Steem is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

And the rich are now growing richer on Steem.

I wrote two days ago they need to abandon curation rewards, and now the entire thing is starting to unravel:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@chitty/whale-s-dilemma#@dantheman/re-chitty-whale-s-dilemma-20160812t155654929z <--- Dan's post

Another post of mine:

https://steemit.com/steem/@dantheman/people-rank-using-page-rank-algorithm-for-better-curation-and-rewards#@anonymint/re-smooth-re-condra-re-dantheman-people-rank-using-page-rank-algorithm-for-better-curation-and-rewards-20160811t150420008z

iamnotback

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Quote from: AlexGR on August 12, 2016, 02:39:27 PM

If you want to measure the "buzz" effect of a post, that will be a game-theory clusterfuck.

Of course that is not what I want to do. It isn't likely you will guess what I have in mind.

AlexGR

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If you want to measure the "buzz" effect of a post, that will be a game-theory clusterfuck.

iamnotback

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Rich are getting richer on Steem:

https://steemit.com/stats/@liberosist/steem-power-distribution-trends-august-update-the-re-distribution-skips-down

iamnotback

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Quote from: r0ach on August 12, 2016, 01:51:45 PM

Quote from: AlexGR on August 12, 2016, 01:42:24 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

You are too preoccupied with the broken system and aren't even doing your job with your own votes:

https://steemd.com/@anonymint

Voting power 99.5369% (most of the time I'm checking this, you're maxed out and it's not recharging)

You have ~10m vests in voting power. It may be a few cents, but they are useful to start an upvote trend in newer articles that you may deem worthy.

Bitshares voter apathy strikes again. On Bitshares you were voting in order to try and preserve your investment by regulating delegates. On here, you're voting more for curation economic gain, but the curation economic gain is miniscule for someone like Anonymint, so there's no real reason for him to do it besides doing someone else a favor.

Exactly.

Btw I have a solution to all of this. We need to get rid of voting when we make a competitor for Steem.

Quote from: https://steemit.com/manifesto/@felixxx/steemit-manifesto#@anonymint/re-felixxx-re-alexgr-re-felixxx-steemit-manifesto-20160812t191021414z

Quote from: felixxx

For me personally, an uncommented post is no different than watching TV, but STEEMIT is ment as a social medium.

Exactly.

GOLDEN RULE: the value of social network is not the content, but rather the network.

Quote from: felixxx

Yet: Obviously, the value of a post isn't proportional to the count of comments on it.

No but it is proportional to something else about comments Wink

Remember I wrote else where I am working on solutions to everything that is broken about Steem.

AlexGR

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Quote from: r0ach on August 12, 2016, 01:51:45 PM

Bitshares voter apathy strikes again.

I never really got involved with bitshares, I was certain it's not going to take off due to complexity (my rule is if you can't say what an altcoin does within a short sentence, the altcoin is DOA). What happened there?

AlexGR

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Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 01:48:41 PM

Quote from: AlexGR on August 12, 2016, 01:42:24 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

You are too preoccupied with the broken system and aren't even doing your job with your own votes:

https://steemd.com/@anonymint

Voting power 99.5369% (most of the time I'm checking this, you're maxed out and it's not recharging)

You have ~10m vests in voting power. It may be a few cents, but they are useful to start an upvote trend in newer articles that you may deem worthy.

The impact I can have as developer far exceeds any impact I could have by voting. I am busy figuring out how Steem is fundamentally flawed and how I am going to fix it.

(I did waste one day experimenting with voting)

You do read a lot of threads and comments and spend a lot of time writing comments. A few clicks for upvotes in things that you find nice (in content that you are already engaged in) won't hurt your time schedule.

We can bitch all day about how whales don't do their work, but that would be hypocrisy if we don't do ours.

r0ach

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Quote from: AlexGR on August 12, 2016, 01:42:24 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

You are too preoccupied with the broken system and aren't even doing your job with your own votes:

https://steemd.com/@anonymint

Voting power 99.5369% (most of the time I'm checking this, you're maxed out and it's not recharging)

You have ~10m vests in voting power. It may be a few cents, but they are useful to start an upvote trend in newer articles that you may deem worthy.

Bitshares voter apathy strikes again. On Bitshares you were voting in order to try and preserve your investment by regulating delegates. On here, you're voting more for curation economic gain, but the curation economic gain is miniscule for someone like Anonymint, so there's no real reason for him to do it besides doing someone else a favor.

It's kind of like the opposite of Bitcoin game theory if you're under a certain threshold of SP. The incentives just don't exist then. This disincentivizes small purchasers of Steem or SP and is one of the biggest flaws. You have to be invested with a ton of money to make the act of curation worth doing as a manual form of labor.

iamnotback

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Quote from: AlexGR on August 12, 2016, 01:42:24 PM

Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

You are too preoccupied with the broken system and aren't even doing your job with your own votes:

https://steemd.com/@anonymint

Voting power 99.5369% (most of the time I'm checking this, you're maxed out and it's not recharging)

You have ~10m vests in voting power. It may be a few cents, but they are useful to start an upvote trend in newer articles that you may deem worthy.

The impact I can have as developer far exceeds any impact I could have by voting. I am busy figuring out how Steem is fundamentally flawed and how I am going to fix it.

(I did waste one day experimenting with voting)

AlexGR

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Activity: 1708

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Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 12:44:05 PM

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

You are too preoccupied with the broken system and aren't even doing your job with your own votes:

https://steemd.com/@anonymint

Voting power 99.5369% (most of the time I'm checking this, you're maxed out and it's not recharging)

You have ~10m vests in voting power. It may be a few cents, but they are useful to start an upvote trend in newer articles that you may deem worthy.

iamnotback

sr. member

Activity: 336

Merit: 265

Quote from: fravia on August 12, 2016, 10:38:11 AM

why would it be a pyramid scheme? it is nonsense, in my opinion it will have a bright future and it might even become a second crypto currency in market cap

Quote from: 20kevin20 on August 12, 2016, 10:46:50 AM

The main reason for which I'm not interested into Altcoins anymore. I have been interested until a few weeks ago. Now I found out there are lots of scams with these Altcoins, so no thank you. Be cautious, guys.

What do you guys think of my list of the main problems of Steem?

Liquidity is very low:
Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 11:01:29 AM
Is the high debasement rate on STEEM that is making the liquidity so low (because only 3% of the money supply is powered down into liquid STEEM)?

Or is that the money supply was increasing 10 fold over the past months still at a 300% per annum rate, thus market cap is not a true indicator of the actual investor interest?
No one is investing in creating communities (plural) because there is no monetary incentive to plant a homestead on Steem. Rather everyone is extracting from the groupthink. The exodus out of SP may have already started as I've seen some of the star ladies taking money out. Everybody is gaming the system, there is minimal investment into it. @smooth even you gamed it by mining it (no offense intended and thanks for sharing the love a bit)
The viral growth is not working because perhaps only 15% of the people who join earn anything worth mentioning and perhaps only 1% earn anything like an income. So I assume this isn't spreading beyond the first degree of relation from the exuberant cryptonerd that begs their friends to try it.
Steem has the wrong promotional model for long-form blogging because Medium has found that only 20,000 serious bloggers serve 25 million readers, i.e. telling people they can easily earn $1000s on blogging is attracting the wrong demographics. Instead it should be telling them they can earn money doing something they can actually do well:
Quote from: https://steemit.com/life/@sweetsssj/steemit-or-livestreaming-i-choose-steemit-steemit-steemit#@anonymint/re-alexgr-re-anonymint-re-alexgr-re-sweetsssj-steemit-or-livestreaming-i-choose-steemit-steemit-steemit-20160812t184529635z
Quote from: alexgr
Interestingly, nobody complains about "whales" tipping these amounts and why some get money for sleeping and others don't... heh...

Because it is something everybody can do. Blogging is something only fewer people can do well.

Important read:

https://medium.com/3minread/medium-is-not-a-publishing-tool-4c3c63fa41d2

iamnotback

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Activity: 336

Merit: 265

I don't think people can invest in Steemit as a community, because they can't develop their own community. Getting a lot of followers doesn't really mean you will earn a lot. If the whales don't vote you, you don't earn much. The ones that are voting me very heavily in the first 30 minutes (up 80 - 100 votes) is because they expect a whale to upvote my posts. I will stop blog posting for a while, because I don't want to feel I am abusing the BROKEN system.

I am not saying this lady is a good example (she is really boring at least the 2 blogs of hers I skimmed!). I am saying I am a good example. I was able to get too many whale votes and this is causing people to frontrun my posts. I now feel I can't win on Steem without taking advantage of my technical connection with the whales. Btw, I really appreciate the money I got from Steem. I really needed that. But in good conscience I can't continue knowing I am so dependent on the whales and that it is promoting the wrong behavior.

I want to build good things. I needed the money yes. But now I need my ideals.

Quote from: https://steemit.com/steemit/@karenb54/i-have-an-idea-what-do-you-think#@anonymint/re-karenb54-i-have-an-idea-what-do-you-think-20160812t172948769z

Quote from: karenb54

To get members to read more the SUBMIT A STORY link to be locked until you read and comment on a certain amount of posts WHICH in turn will slow down the amount of posts being posted BUT increase the amount of reading and interaction

Since you (attempted to) read my recent blog post and commented there, I came over here to see if there was something I could suggest or respond to. I don't have much time, but I will give a little bit of it to you because I care.

To drive more interaction, we need to ways to allows users to form interest groups. Limiting activity to force people to behave a certain way will just send them fleeing the site to something that allows them to do what they want.

My suggestion to you is to think about your interests and who would share them with you. And then tell us why you can't reach those interested people on Steem.

iamnotback

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Quote from: iamnotback on August 12, 2016, 01:50:06 AM

Also could someone consider downvoting this hater? I don't want downvote him because he might stalk me and revenge on me forever (which it seems he is already doing, as he has written nonsense in my last 3 blogs):

https://steemit.com/reputation/@anonymint/do-steemians-approve-of-stalking-and-haters

Lol, I changed the title to a new word I just invented, righteoushitting. @biophil is correct that I used inappropriate words.

Topic: Steem pyramid scheme revealed - page 47. (Read 107064 times)