Topic: STOP selling bitcoin on MtGox, b/c there's virtually no way to withdraw it - page 2. (Read 14756 times)

When they started ignoring the Euro users I went to Intersango and never looked back. It's time for some of you to think about a change.

I don't think this means that someone can't tell a customer they sent him money, how much, on what date.


I don't think this means that someone can't tell their customer that their money isn't on its way, or that they need adequate proof of identity.  The notion of "we can't send you your money because we don't know who you are, but we are also not allowed to ask you who you are because that might tip you off that the reason we can't send you your money is because we don't know who you are and we're not supposed to do that" is illogical and likely well outside the requirements of AML laws.



They can still send the money and file a SAR.  The whole point is, let the bureaucrats do the freezing of the funds and all the investigating.  Simply refusing to send the funds is inconsistent with "investigating" and more consistent with simply not having the funds to send.


They could also reassure us that they actually have our money, by taking steps to prove they hold BTC (signing messages with private keys) and by having audits so third party can certify they have the funds we have entrusted to them.  Even just an opinion letter from an accountant would be a cheap great start.  But they choose not to do any of this, and consistently indicate that doing so is too difficult or too expensive, which I find very difficult to believe.

That's because of the way that payment processors route payments in order to try to get around online gambling laws.  There were millions of dollars frozen in offshore payment processor accounts when the US DoJ cracked down on online gambling.


This can be a difficult problem.  Many nations have AML/CTF laws which prevent "tipping off" which essentially means that you're not allowed to tell a customer that you regard a transaction as suspicious or that it's been reported as a suspicious matter.  You can ask them about the origin and the destination of the funds, but that's about it.  This becomes complicated if you go to wire money and the bank then wants enhanced KYC information on your customer. 

The bank is perfectly within its rights to refuse any transaction for any reason, but it can certainly refuse to process a transaction until adequate KYC information has been provided - but because of the laws against tipping off, when this situation occurs the originating FSP/MSB has to be extremely careful about what information they disclose to the customer.

Transactions which have the appearance of structuring or which raise that money is being sent to fake account holders create another bureaucratic nightmare - service providers once again have to try to determine the legitimacy of the transactions without alerting the customer to any investigation (there's no actual law against dividing up transactions but they have to investigate it for possible AML activity and report it if they cannot establish legitimacy).

If you read the cases where financial services providers have been fined in the millions of dollars for non-compliance with AML/CTF/KYC regulations, it's an eye-opener just how much FSPs are required to monitor customer transactions on an on-going basis and the extent to which they're expected to investigate anything even vaguely "suspicious".

Mt Gox is stuck with multiple AML/KYC requirements.  They have to create their own framework under Japanese law and comply with that.  They must also comply with the requirements of Dwolla and other payment processors and additionally they need to comply with the requirements of their banks.  These will not always mesh seamlessly as the broad principals of AML/KYC/CTF regulations are similar in FATF countries but each individual financial services provider develops their own way of implementing them.

In addition to any AML/KYC/CTF requirements, any FPS also needs to have algorithms which identify possibly fraudulent transactions.  It's not hard to see why 5% of transactions can end up being flagged for one reason or another and when you're moving millions of dollars each month that means that hundreds of thousands can get tied up for varying periods of time.

This isn't unique to Bitcoin exchanges.  Stored value of any kind has become a major magnet for fraud and money laundering and payment processors are starting to freeze accounts through which people are moving larger amounts than would reasonably be expected.

I stopped using mtgox for withdrawing funds long ago.. the service awful.  I hope more people wake up and take their business elsewhere.

I have pressed, but never gotten a credible answer, as to why MtGox cannot just wire the funds and let the recipient bear the risk that their beloved government will delay them.  At least MtGox would have a solid reply: "Look, we sent the funds on XX/XX/2012, here is the reference number and a copy of the proof we initiated it.  It is out of our hands now."

If I knew money had been sent my way and that they were being "investigated", I'd be fine with that, knowing that I'm not a criminal and that the funds would eventually make it to me.  I'd be far more fine with that versus the funds never having been sent, which is what seems to be the case with all of the wire-related complaints on the forum.

There is a thread on a gambling forum I frequent where a guy won 25k betting sports and has to pay $700 for a wire...... $40 wires are standard. I requested 2k from bodog and it took a month to get a weird cheque from the phillipines ie from the other side of the world.

Guys, use an alternative exchange like Intersango. They process same-day withdrawals and deposits.

I made a $900 withdrawal in 11 days.  An awfully long time but not impossible.

I don't mind the delay so much as not knowing what the delay is.  As it is I can't plan.

Is there anyway to tell me when my withdrawal will complete?

Sam

Well it seems that you doubt whatever we said, so I thought that you would be more inclined in believing someone else experience on the forum? If Dwolla withdrawal were not possible anymore we would automatically remove this option, so far it still works.


Have you read this ? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-mtgox-withdrawal-clarification-87086

a user replied to me, not MtGox. Don't you think MtGox should be replying instead of relying on users to answer customer's questions?
Plus, I had no idea it is still possible, as the user posted it was completed, as in PAST tense. How am I supposed to know if it is still possible NOW without MtGox saying it explicitly?

Yes, gov likes to check into $10k transfers, but from what I gather on this forum, is that is takes a long time regardless of amount. It would be nice if MtGox came out straight and say only 5% of customers are affected and why.

I am not sure how I can make it more clear, YES DWOLLA withdrawals are still possible, they are just long I believe that a user replied to you on this already https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.994648

Why WIRE transfer take time? As we posted on this forum already only 5% of them are affected. Now why Wire are taking time, well this as well as been explained here on the forum. It really depends on the amount you are wiring and the frequency. I am not sure if you are aware of that fact but the US government like to check international wire and wires (even several ones) to the same account around 10,000 USD will trigger a check from your beloved government. No since we are talking about Bitcoin here somehow you will quickly realize that they are really good at checking things. This explain why 5% of our international Wire in USD are touched.

So can you answer whether Dwolla withdrawals are still possible or not? If not, why not remove it from the website? It is false advertising.
I have a pending Dwolla transfer, if it is IMPOSSIBLE at this time, then I would like my funds back. I only traded on MtGox on the assumption that I can withdraw the USD by Dwolla.

While you may not set the fees for WIRE transfer, but how do you explain why it takes over 19 days to do it?

You accusation are just wrong and borderline lies.

YES Withdrawals are slow when it comes to DWOLLA but we have been clear on this forum on the reasons why many times, please check by yourself. As for Wire fees? Guess what? We do not make the rules on how much they cost, Banks does! And please remember that we are based in Japan and not in the USA explaining why these cost are expensive! Also please note that it is only affecting USD Withdrawals and not other currencies.

As we stated many times we are working on a solution but here as well it takes times since we have to deal with good old fashion banks and rules that hate having people poking around their lucrative system. We truely understand everyone's frustration and anger, we are really working hard to get this sorted out soon. But to tell you the truth any single time a Bank or a Organization have an opportunity to slow us down they will!
Mt.Gox is one of the Oldest Exchange on the market and after being thru hell over and over we are still here! Check what happen to others? TradeHill for example the 2nd largest exchange and our best "Nemesis" was somehow forced out (Read the forum and you will know the reasons), Bitconica and its brilliant concept is now closed and a lot of people are still waiting to get this over with.

So yes, we understand this situation is not perfect, but try, if you can, to understand the particularity of the Bitcoin situation itself you may start to understand the work load we have and how hard it is. Sure just open a Exchange tomorrow run it yourself with a few customers and well you will be safe, then your volume will pick-up eventually and you will see how things are.

Certainly volume is Mt Gox's strength. But for BTC/USD traders one basic requirement is to be able to transfer USD in and out of the exchange within a reasonable amount of time. For a lot of BTC/USD traders here on the forum that's where Mt Gox has been lacking recently. With bank wires being expensive and both bank wires and dwolla being slow, traders are starting to look elsewhere. For those in the US, I'd suggest looking at BitFloor, CampBX and Intersango in that order. If this were a horse race, my money would be on BitFloor who's doing a lot of things the right way.

The higher volume makes MtGox more attractive to people wanting to launder money.  They don't care about buying at a higher price as long as they can get their Bitcoins out quickly, and they're still taking less of a loss than they would be if they used conventional means of money laundering.

lol

Not all merchants accept BTC yet. And just as I sometimes have need to convert USD to EUR GBP JPY etc, it's good for a currency if you can easily convert it to other currencies. Therefore, I think it's important to have the ability to convert BTC in other currencies quickly and easily. You'd be amazed at how many merchants still accept fiat currencies as payment.

When you sell some coins to cover the cost of the mining operation? I would like to pay my electric company in BTC, but they don't accept that.

Why would I want to withdraw in dollars? When I want something I buy it with BTC. That's why I bought them with dollars in the first place.

Looking at USD exchanges on Bitcoincharts.com I see Mt Gox has the highest price. I can understand why the sellers want to sell at the exchange with the highest price. But then they find they have trouble withdrawing the USD in a timely fashion. However, I'm wondering why are the buyers buying at the highest price when there are several other exchanges with lower prices? Certainly one of those would have a way that they can deposit USD. Why do you think the buyers keep buying at Mt Gox?