Then why can't you import mercenaries from Somalia and Afghanistan to Sweden? IMO, it will save a lot of money for the government. But no one will be able to guarantee their loyalty.
Bad example. These people obviously don't accept Western values! 
Topic: Sweden returns a call to the army in connection with the threat from Russia (Read 1754 times)
March 12, 2017, 12:15:48 AM
March 11, 2017, 11:30:24 PM
Conscripts, as far as I know, get paid a salary. Whether it's a pittance depends on the eye of the beholder.
It depends from the average standard of living in the concrete country. I think there would be 100s millions of voluntary conscripts in India if offered $1000/month, but for Sweden it is just a pittance!Then why can't you import mercenaries from Somalia and Afghanistan to Sweden? IMO, it will save a lot of money for the government. But no one will be able to guarantee their loyalty.
March 11, 2017, 01:11:14 PM
Conscripts, as far as I know, get paid a salary. Whether it's a pittance depends on the eye of the beholder.
It depends from the average standard of living in the concrete country. I think there would be 100s millions of voluntary conscripts in India if offered $1000/month, but for Sweden it is just a pittance!Besides that; conscription can happen to anyone, more or less, and it's temporary so I doubt an economy will suffer from highly skilled people being drafted into the army.
A programmer can quickly lose his skills if not working in the profession just for a year.Some people might cringe but instilling love for the country into people from a very young age helps.
Why to stop here?! I think you will also support chemical treatment of conscripts' brain to make them even more loyal to the govt! 
March 11, 2017, 12:37:36 PM
snip
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Freakin parasites only out to save their skins. Yeah, impossible to get rid of these. Hopefully these people who are likely to switch sides can be spotted during the training program and tagged as such. Better not give them any important tasks. Sure some will escape that net (good actors) but hopefully that should reduce the damage that they'd cause.
There are still some ways to reduce the chances of these happening. Some people might cringe but instilling love for the country into people from a very young age helps. Military training in young adulthood to instill discipline. And make it clear to them what's at stake should the country fall. The Japanese knew the fate of losers, that's why they hurl themselves down cliffs rather than be taken captive. Only the nukes broke their spirit, they would have kept fighting.
March 11, 2017, 12:19:14 PM
Who says the conscripts don't get paid? As far as I know you do get a salary as an enlisted person. It's minimum wage probably but nonetheless.
If a programmer will be called into the army and offered hobo's pittance instead of highly-skilled and well-paid job, the Swedish society will lose good talent and chunk of economy.Most likely so. But that's another point. Conscripts, as far as I know, get paid a salary. Whether it's a pittance depends on the eye of the beholder.
Besides that; conscription can happen to anyone, more or less, and it's temporary so I doubt an economy will suffer from highly skilled people being drafted into the army.
March 11, 2017, 11:39:22 AM
Who says the conscripts don't get paid? As far as I know you do get a salary as an enlisted person. It's minimum wage probably but nonetheless.
If a programmer will be called into the army and offered hobo's pittance instead of highly-skilled and well-paid job, the Swedish society will lose good talent and chunk of economy. March 11, 2017, 11:30:48 AM
haha touché 
I hope though, this is not meant to train the newly arrived immigrants. What with their loyalties being not primarily with the host country...
I hope though, this is not meant to train the newly arrived immigrants. What with their loyalties being not primarily with the host country...
The generous welfare system in Sweden has attracted huge numbers of third world immigrants, especially those from Muslim nations such as Afghanistan, Somalia, and Pakistan. These people doesn't feel any attachment with Sweden. If a war happens, then they will just immigrate to some other country.
March 11, 2017, 08:07:55 AM
Nothing causes such damage as a betrayal. Your people always know our most vulnerable places and gladly turn them over to the enemy. It's terrible, but there is no protection from this.
There is a protection against betrayal and defection! Pay your soldiers good salary and promise them generous Google-like benefits (free gourmet food, health insurance, pension, free education etc), so they will be motivated to fight bravely and defend country. Soldiers must to understand that if own army loses, they will also lose all promised benefits.You know what? World is large and wide and not everybody will fight and kill for green paper and extra week of vacation. Men are by nature quite tribal. And proud.
Since we are talking Sweden, I have my doubts, that state spending vast majority of its budget on welfare and transgender propaganda will offer that kind of paycheck to hot blooded men, who have tribal and religious links to potential enemies of state.
Afterall we did not manage to bribe Russia into cooperation and Turkey keeps rising the stakes, despite "benefits" they could have if they stayed in line. So you are not able to bribe your enemies, you formed society which scoffs at patriotism and now, you are dependant on mercenaries, who will only fight as far as paycheck is concerned. Exactly like late Roman Empire.
March 11, 2017, 06:56:20 AM
Conscription isn't half bad. A lot of youngsters have been born and raised in liberty and some of them seem to have difficulties respecting other raised in the same sphere.
Why some organization (government) can force other people to do free work? Conscription is a form of slavery!It may be morally acceptable if govt required people to serve in army to get welfare or so called "basic income", but never for free!
Who says the conscripts don't get paid? As far as I know you do get a salary as an enlisted person. It's minimum wage probably but nonetheless.
March 11, 2017, 06:51:27 AM
Conscription isn't half bad. A lot of youngsters have been born and raised in liberty and some of them seem to have difficulties respecting other raised in the same sphere.
And I guess if you feel threatened by a neighbouring nation, why not?
And I guess if you feel threatened by a neighbouring nation, why not?
Russia and Sweden never shared land border in the past hundred years
I think it is obvious that this is all ruse to somehow get out tens of thousands of immigrant Africans and Arabs out of their ghettos and force them to socialize and learn discipline. I doubt it will be very effective as modern armed forces are not very effective at stomping out extremism or tribal mentality. They will learn how to use guns properly, though.
haha touché
I hope though, this is not meant to train the newly arrived immigrants. What with their loyalties being not primarily with the host country...
March 11, 2017, 03:01:20 AM
I assume that Sweden wants to bring back military conscription because of the political and military changes around in borders and neighbors.
"The Russian illegal annexation of Crimea [in 2014], the conflict in Ukraine and the increased military activity in our neighbourhood are some of the reasons,". according to the Press Secretary to the Swedish Minister for Defence. I guess they are feel threaten by the ongoing military exercises of Russia around the Baltic. You can't blame them as they have the every right to defend their country, but I don't think they will likely go into conflict with the Russians because they know that they will not win any war them.
"The Russian illegal annexation of Crimea [in 2014], the conflict in Ukraine and the increased military activity in our neighbourhood are some of the reasons,". according to the Press Secretary to the Swedish Minister for Defence. I guess they are feel threaten by the ongoing military exercises of Russia around the Baltic. You can't blame them as they have the every right to defend their country, but I don't think they will likely go into conflict with the Russians because they know that they will not win any war them.
March 10, 2017, 05:07:06 PM
World is large and wide and not everybody will fight and kill for green paper and extra week of vacation.
In technologically-advanced professional army people don't need to risk their life like it was in WWII. But to fly an impact drone you need education and skill set, so this professional will expect relevant salary and benefits.you are dependant on mercenaries, who will only fight as far as paycheck is concerned. Exactly like late Roman Empire.
Some ideology like communism may also provide motivation to fight. Many Soviet soldiers during WWII fought bravely and scarified their life believing in communism, although state paid them almost nothing and food ration was just enough to survive.So, without ideology (no one Western country have state ideology now), only monetary reward can be used to motivate serving in the army.
March 10, 2017, 04:09:17 PM
Nothing causes such damage as a betrayal. Your people always know our most vulnerable places and gladly turn them over to the enemy. It's terrible, but there is no protection from this.
There is a protection against betrayal and defection! Pay your soldiers good salary and promise them generous Google-like benefits (free gourmet food, health insurance, pension, free education etc), so they will be motivated to fight bravely and defend country. Soldiers must to understand that if own army loses, they will also lose all promised benefits.You know what? World is large and wide and not everybody will fight and kill for green paper and extra week of vacation. Men are by nature quite tribal. And proud.
Since we are talking Sweden, I have my doubts, that state spending vast majority of its budget on welfare and transgender propaganda will offer that kind of paycheck to hot blooded men, who have tribal and religious links to potential enemies of state.
Afterall we did not manage to bribe Russia into cooperation and Turkey keeps rising the stakes, despite "benefits" they could have if they stayed in line. So you are not able to bribe your enemies, you formed society which scoffs at patriotism and now, you are dependant on mercenaries, who will only fight as far as paycheck is concerned. Exactly like late Roman Empire.
March 10, 2017, 12:58:49 PM
Nothing causes such damage as a betrayal. Your people always know our most vulnerable places and gladly turn them over to the enemy. It's terrible, but there is no protection from this.
There is a protection against betrayal and defection! Pay your soldiers good salary and promise them generous Google-like benefits (free gourmet food, health insurance, pension, free education etc), so they will be motivated to fight bravely and defend country. Soldiers must to understand that if own army loses, they will also lose all promised benefits.You know what? World is large and wide and not everybody will fight and kill for green paper and extra week of vacation. Men are by nature quite tribal. And proud.
Since we are talking Sweden, I have my doubts, that state spending vast majority of its budget on welfare and transgender propaganda will offer that kind of paycheck to hot blooded men, who have tribal and religious links to potential enemies of state.
Afterall we did not manage to bribe Russia into cooperation and Turkey keeps rising the stakes, despite "benefits" they could have if they stayed in line. So you are not able to bribe your enemies, you formed society which scoffs at patriotism and now, you are dependant on mercenaries, who will only fight as far as paycheck is concerned. Exactly like late Roman Empire.
March 10, 2017, 12:52:20 PM
Hello,
in fact similar policy was in place by Ottoman Empire (aka proto Turkey). By law only muslims could bear arms. The result of protracted warfare was depleted numbers of fighting age muslim men in face of growing minorities. And unrest. In fact, it is one of major reasons why Ottomans collapsed at the turn of 20th century. There simply lacked numbers of (loyal) men to keep non-muslim (almost majority) in line.
in fact similar policy was in place by Ottoman Empire (aka proto Turkey). By law only muslims could bear arms. The result of protracted warfare was depleted numbers of fighting age muslim men in face of growing minorities. And unrest. In fact, it is one of major reasons why Ottomans collapsed at the turn of 20th century. There simply lacked numbers of (loyal) men to keep non-muslim (almost majority) in line.
That is factually incorrect. The Ottomans stole large numbers of young people from the Christian ethnic groups (Slavs, Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians.etc). Most of the males were forced to join the Janissary corps (which acted as cannon fodder during the wars) after forced conversion to Islam. The females and some of the males were relegated to the status of sex slaves, and shipped off to the harems in Anatolia.
Good point, sir. BUT that is different time period
jannisaries were thing of medieval times, when empire was still growing. In similar way Romans used defeated tribes as auxilliaries to boost and diversify its own (primarily heavy infantry) force.By the time of late 19th century, jannissaries actually turned into sort of corrupt military aristocracy (mirroring earlier develepments in pretorian guard of Rome) and had to be disbanded by force in favour of modern conscript army. Yet, that new conscript army, even though more effective than ancient medieval one, had to rely on patriotic people of the country. Which is next to impossible in multicultural society which is at war with itself.
In every engagement there after, bulk of casaulties was taken by sunni muslim Turk/Azeri and Kurdish troops, while people of Greek, Armenian etc. descent were ignored for doubts about their loyalty. Turning demographic tide against majority population piece by piece.
You could say, that diverse society is good servant, but bad master.
EDIT: Look here at "disbandment". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries
March 10, 2017, 11:32:12 AM
Nothing causes such damage as a betrayal. Your people always know our most vulnerable places and gladly turn them over to the enemy. It's terrible, but there is no protection from this.
There is a protection against betrayal and defection! Pay your soldiers good salary and promise them generous Google-like benefits (free gourmet food, health insurance, pension, free education etc), so they will be motivated to fight bravely and defend country. Soldiers must to understand that if own army loses, they will also lose all promised benefits. March 10, 2017, 11:12:33 AM
Nothing causes such damage as a betrayal. Your people always know our most vulnerable places and gladly turn them over to the enemy. It's terrible, but there is no protection from this.
There is a protection against betrayal and defection! Pay your soldiers good salary and promise them generous Google-like benefits (free gourmet food, health insurance, pension, free education etc), so they will be motivated to fight bravely and defend country. Soldiers must to understand that if own army loses, they will also lose all promised benefits. March 10, 2017, 10:11:19 AM
Hello,
in fact similar policy was in place by Ottoman Empire (aka proto Turkey). By law only muslims could bear arms. The result of protracted warfare was depleted numbers of fighting age muslim men in face of growing minorities. And unrest. In fact, it is one of major reasons why Ottomans collapsed at the turn of 20th century. There simply lacked numbers of (loyal) men to keep non-muslim (almost majority) in line.
in fact similar policy was in place by Ottoman Empire (aka proto Turkey). By law only muslims could bear arms. The result of protracted warfare was depleted numbers of fighting age muslim men in face of growing minorities. And unrest. In fact, it is one of major reasons why Ottomans collapsed at the turn of 20th century. There simply lacked numbers of (loyal) men to keep non-muslim (almost majority) in line.
That is factually incorrect. The Ottomans stole large numbers of young people from the Christian ethnic groups (Slavs, Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians.etc). Most of the males were forced to join the Janissary corps (which acted as cannon fodder during the wars) after forced conversion to Islam. The females and some of the males were relegated to the status of sex slaves, and shipped off to the harems in Anatolia.
Ah, I loved those quick-healing Jannisaries.
1. By that same token we can also call taxes economic slavery. They take our money yet we don't really have much of a say on how they actually spend it. Use mah money to feed those freeloaders? How dare they! Should we refuse to pay our taxes?
Taxes presumed to be spent for public benefit (however in many countries corrupt government officers steal large part of taxes, so people try to evade them by all means). I know that Swedes are happy to pay high taxes because in exchange they get excellent infrastructure, free education and healthcare, public housing etc. Welfare keeps unlucky people feed, so they don't steal, rob, burn cars. See it as a payment for your security.I was thinking more in the line of a defensive war. I don't see anything wrong in spending a few months a year in a military camp training to fight off invaders. When they do come in, it wouldn't really matter whether you like your government or not.
What if some people don't want to defend government and political system he opposes?! If forced to serve in army, he can sabotage and fight against own forces. A lot of examples during WWII.Fighting for the invader is just plain treachery. I'd understand if you don't wan't to do to certain things for the government. Heck, there are always people who do and if you live in a democracy there's plenty of ways to make your displeasure known. Going turncoat is an extreme way though. I'd never help foreigners invade my country, unless the current government is also a foreign power, in which case I'd just see treason as a change of colonial master.
Freakin parasites only out to save their skins. Yeah, impossible to get rid of these. Hopefully these people who are likely to switch sides can be spotted during the training program and tagged as such. Better not give them any important tasks. Sure some will escape that net (good actors) but hopefully that should reduce the damage that they'd cause.
March 10, 2017, 06:23:53 AM
Hello,
in fact similar policy was in place by Ottoman Empire (aka proto Turkey). By law only muslims could bear arms. The result of protracted warfare was depleted numbers of fighting age muslim men in face of growing minorities. And unrest. In fact, it is one of major reasons why Ottomans collapsed at the turn of 20th century. There simply lacked numbers of (loyal) men to keep non-muslim (almost majority) in line.
in fact similar policy was in place by Ottoman Empire (aka proto Turkey). By law only muslims could bear arms. The result of protracted warfare was depleted numbers of fighting age muslim men in face of growing minorities. And unrest. In fact, it is one of major reasons why Ottomans collapsed at the turn of 20th century. There simply lacked numbers of (loyal) men to keep non-muslim (almost majority) in line.
That is factually incorrect. The Ottomans stole large numbers of young people from the Christian ethnic groups (Slavs, Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians.etc). Most of the males were forced to join the Janissary corps (which acted as cannon fodder during the wars) after forced conversion to Islam. The females and some of the males were relegated to the status of sex slaves, and shipped off to the harems in Anatolia.
Ah, I loved those quick-healing Jannisaries.
1. By that same token we can also call taxes economic slavery. They take our money yet we don't really have much of a say on how they actually spend it. Use mah money to feed those freeloaders? How dare they! Should we refuse to pay our taxes?
Taxes presumed to be spent for public benefit (however in many countries corrupt government officers steal large part of taxes, so people try to evade them by all means). I know that Swedes are happy to pay high taxes because in exchange they get excellent infrastructure, free education and healthcare, public housing etc. Welfare keeps unlucky people feed, so they don't steal, rob, burn cars. See it as a payment for your security.I was thinking more in the line of a defensive war. I don't see anything wrong in spending a few months a year in a military camp training to fight off invaders. When they do come in, it wouldn't really matter whether you like your government or not.
What if some people don't want to defend government and political system he opposes?! If forced to serve in army, he can sabotage and fight against own forces. A lot of examples during WWII.Fighting for the invader is just plain treachery. I'd understand if you don't wan't to do to certain things for the government. Heck, there are always people who do and if you live in a democracy there's plenty of ways to make your displeasure known. Going turncoat is an extreme way though. I'd never help foreigners invade my country, unless the current government is also a foreign power, in which case I'd just see treason as a change of colonial master.
Freakin parasites only out to save their skins. Yeah, impossible to get rid of these. Hopefully these people who are likely to switch sides can be spotted during the training program and tagged as such. Better not give them any important tasks. Sure some will escape that net (good actors) but hopefully that should reduce the damage that they'd cause.
March 10, 2017, 03:35:06 AM
Hello,
in fact similar policy was in place by Ottoman Empire (aka proto Turkey). By law only muslims could bear arms. The result of protracted warfare was depleted numbers of fighting age muslim men in face of growing minorities. And unrest. In fact, it is one of major reasons why Ottomans collapsed at the turn of 20th century. There simply lacked numbers of (loyal) men to keep non-muslim (almost majority) in line.
in fact similar policy was in place by Ottoman Empire (aka proto Turkey). By law only muslims could bear arms. The result of protracted warfare was depleted numbers of fighting age muslim men in face of growing minorities. And unrest. In fact, it is one of major reasons why Ottomans collapsed at the turn of 20th century. There simply lacked numbers of (loyal) men to keep non-muslim (almost majority) in line.
That is factually incorrect. The Ottomans stole large numbers of young people from the Christian ethnic groups (Slavs, Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians.etc). Most of the males were forced to join the Janissary corps (which acted as cannon fodder during the wars) after forced conversion to Islam. The females and some of the males were relegated to the status of sex slaves, and shipped off to the harems in Anatolia.
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