Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 323.

Meizirkki

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KnC's first three lies:

Quote from: kncminer on April 08, 2013, 07:38:55 AM

We are Swedish miners that are producing our own ASIC miners to strengthen the market and avoid monopoly.

Quote from: kncminer on April 08, 2013, 07:38:55 AM

A lot of scam sites are appearing every day and we are not one of them

Quote from: kncminer on April 08, 2013, 07:38:55 AM

We will in the upcoming weeks opening our order book to allow the purchase of our first set of ASIC miners. They are in the early stages of development now and will be ready in the summer of 2013

user27

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Activity: 266

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Quote from: aasl on July 01, 2014, 08:02:02 AM

I am in batch 1 and I am screwed by knc.

Sounds like a thread title...

EDIT:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/i-am-in-batch-1-and-i-am-screwed-by-knc-672950

aasl

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: user27 on July 01, 2014, 06:36:13 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 06:15:05 AM

OK, it's good to thrash these things out, as it is clearly becoming a viable option to begin some sort of action against this company.
Thanks to MurrayPaul for his insight and logic, which a lot of; makes sense. To do this, people are going to need to know the pitfalls expected and the options available.

The best thing would be for KfC to just honour all refund requests; it's not as though they are short of the funds - having competed against their own customers for this long.

They should at this time just be honest about the situation; which it feels like they have forgotten how to do.

I see two options for them to avoid legal action at this stage; they could offer HWYW AND 2nd Neptune to all customers who have not as yet had their first Neptune dispatched or they could offer full refunds to outstanding orders. Clearly they should offer both options, but either one would swing any court action in their favor.

Can we get an idea of how many people have been screwed over at this stage? Is it the majority of batch one?

u27

I am in batch 1 and I am screwed by knc.

user27

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 06:15:05 AM

OK, it's good to thrash these things out, as it is clearly becoming a viable option to begin some sort of action against this company.
Thanks to MurrayPaul for his insight and logic, which a lot of; makes sense. To do this, people are going to need to know the pitfalls expected and the options available.

The best thing would be for KfC to just honour all refund requests; it's not as though they are short of the funds - having competed against their own customers for this long.

They should at this time just be honest about the situation; which it feels like they have forgotten how to do.

I see two options for them to avoid legal action at this stage; they could offer HWYW AND 2nd Neptune to all customers who have not as yet had their first Neptune dispatched or they could offer full refunds to outstanding orders. Clearly they should offer both options, but either one would swing any court action in their favor.

Can we get an idea of how many people have been screwed over at this stage? Is it the majority of batch one?

u27

raskul

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Activity: 434

Merit: 250

OK, it's good to thrash these things out, as it is clearly becoming a viable option to begin some sort of action against this company.
Thanks to MurrayPaul for his insight and logic, which a lot of; makes sense. To do this, people are going to need to know the pitfalls expected and the options available.

The best thing would be for KfC to just honour all refund requests; it's not as though they are short of the funds - having competed against their own customers for this long.

user27

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Activity: 266

Merit: 250

Quote from: RoadStress on July 01, 2014, 06:08:17 AM

It wasn't required since I and many others were able to order without a VAT number. If it was required then we couldn't order.

I ordered without to start with and KnC gave me the option to pay VAT or provide VAT registration number some time later.

RoadStress

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Quote from: user27 on July 01, 2014, 06:05:31 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:22:41 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but VAT number was required.

It wasn't required since I and many others were able to order without a VAT number. If it was required then we couldn't order.

user27

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Activity: 266

Merit: 250

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:22:41 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but VAT number was required.

Every EU customer had the option to provide VAT number or pay 20% tax on top on the $10-13k and I'm guessing not a single person opted to pay the 20%.

u27

murraypaul

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Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:50:42 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:46:08 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:43:47 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:42:00 AM

Quote from: RoadStress on July 01, 2014, 05:28:39 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

Quote

1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Did you agree to that or not?
A private individual can conduct a business, and doesn't need a VAT number if they don't choose to reclaim VAT.
The only use for a Bitcoin miner is to make money, which sounds like a business activity?

No; KfC did not place any reasonable restrictions on sales to combat the purchase of the product by individuals and; no, mining bitcoin is not a business activity - it is not subject to the same tax laws as my businesses are.

They have no need to prevent sales to individuals, as individuals can conduct a business.
They don't say that they will only sell to organisations, to to business with VAT numbers, or anything else.
The only restriction is on the agreed intent of the purchaser: 'to conduct a business'. Only the purchaser can know their intent.

The T&Cs are clearly designed to restrict your rights. This has been the case right back from the start with the first miners they sold. This was pointed out several times.
People signed up anyway. Their choice.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me?

It may well be that you could eventually win a court case overturning parts of their T&Cs. But noone is ever going to spend the time and money to do that, and both they and you know that.

raskul

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Merit: 250

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:46:08 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:43:47 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:42:00 AM

Quote from: RoadStress on July 01, 2014, 05:28:39 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

Quote

1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Did you agree to that or not?
A private individual can conduct a business, and doesn't need a VAT number if they don't choose to reclaim VAT.
The only use for a Bitcoin miner is to make money, which sounds like a business activity?

No; KfC did not place any reasonable restrictions on sales to combat the purchase of the product by individuals and; no, mining bitcoin is not a business activity - it is not subject to the same tax laws as my businesses are.

murraypaul

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Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:43:47 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:42:00 AM

Quote from: RoadStress on July 01, 2014, 05:28:39 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

Quote

1.2 The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.

Did you agree to that or not?
A private individual can conduct a business, and doesn't need a VAT number if they don't choose to reclaim VAT.
The only use for a Bitcoin miner is to make money, which sounds like a business activity?

raskul

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:42:00 AM

Quote from: RoadStress on July 01, 2014, 05:28:39 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?

because it is their terms and conditions

murraypaul

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: RoadStress on July 01, 2014, 05:28:39 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

The question is why to they need to investigate your lie?
Alternatively, you weren't lying, and did intend to buy for business purposes, in which case why should you be able to change your mind now?
You signed up to crappy T&C. You knew they were crappy at the time.
You knew KNC have shafted people on refunds before, and delivered late before.

The Avenger

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Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:22:41 AM

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

And let's not forget one of the KNC Directors has publicly stated in an interview:

"We're selling to the general public"
"We are selling fully functional devices, that anyone can come and buy"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg3337438;topicseen#msg3337438

Also, KNC acknowledge in the Life on Bitcoin video that most of their customers are "mostly private individuals", which of course would be impossible if they ONLY sold B2B and they fully stuck to their own terms and conditions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb5-ZEjsKt0

The Avenger

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Activity: 798

Merit: 1000

KNC are surely guilty of false statement of fact, i.e. misrepresentation? Huh

They claim they are offering *completely free* hashing to compensate for any delays (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.7550611). It's a no-strings-attached statement and no doubt led many customers not to ask for a refund.

Then this *completely free* hashing to compensate for any delays is made conditional on giving up bonus rig (i.e. strings-now-attached).

If they don't offer the *completely free*, no-strings-attached hashing they promised in the February newsletter, then their original statement was misrepresentation?

Because giving up a machine supposedly worth $10,000 is in no way *completely free*.

They also said this in the same newsletter:

Quote

If, during the course of development of Neptune, there is any threat to the timelines for delivery, those delays will not result in the loss of any mining time for our Neptune customers.

If you don't accept the "HWYW but lose bonuis miner" con, then you WILL be suffering loss of mining time if Neptunes are delayed (which is today folks - Q3).

And I think them stating yesterday they ran out of wafer/chips is acknowledging a major delay in the Neptune delivery timeline.

So KNC is either guilty of fraud or misrepresentation - you or your lawyer decide.

RoadStress

legendary

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Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

Because they made the invoices and they received the money from private persons, not from a business.

raskul

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: murraypaul on July 01, 2014, 05:12:26 AM

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

by placing such restrictions and then offering a free web portal for sales. Any lawyer would find ease in tearing apart KfC arguments.
It is quite simple to assure business-to-business trade, by requiring company number or VAT registration number. None of this was carried out and it was the case that KfC simply put up a web shop for all and sundry to make purchase of their equipment.

murraypaul

sr. member

Activity: 476

Merit: 250

Quote from: raskul on July 01, 2014, 05:06:56 AM

This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Why?
By agreeing to the T&C you have stated to them that you are a business customer. Why should they have to investigate whether you were lying?

raskul

sr. member

Activity: 434

Merit: 250

Quote from: user27 on July 01, 2014, 03:40:35 AM

Held my faith in KnC for a long time when others doubted them; turns out the others were right! I have requested refund for upwards of a dozen solid reasons including "fire hazard" and "Q1/Q2 means end of March"... even once they twist it around they cant claim it means Q3.

If refund is not honored promptly then it's time to get legal. If it goes that far then I will be claiming against them for cost of PSU and preparation time also.

Most of the suggestions for litigation against KnC are invalid because Neptune was not sold as a consumer product; they will also dodge safety concerns because they are only selling 12v hardware (way short of 50v legislation). However, they can't argue that dispatch in Q3 is meeting their obligations; they will try to argue that HWYW constitutes meeting their (already twisted) delivery timescale but if this means giving up 2nd machine then they fall wildly short on "under promise and over deliver" which was stated by KnC *everywhere*.

Who's with me?

u27

hope you get it sorted, but i'm pretty sure their business-customer-only argument would not stand up in court.
This is KfC own t's and c's; therefore It would be up to KfC to vet every customer and prove that they have done ample due diligence to assure they haven't sold to any residential customer. Methinks they would fall flat on their face in this matter.

Crypto_Cumbrian

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Quote from: Searing on July 01, 2014, 03:08:47 AM

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-95

titan neptune news just posted

Searing

Nice Picture of the Neptune Miners, a Lot of Empty Boxes a bit like their Promises. ;-)

Topic: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com - page 323. (Read 3049515 times)