Topic: [TAT.VIRTUALMINE] - page 14. (Read 39830 times)

No clue. Cheaper shares for the rest of us.

why are people trying to ditch shares sub ipo righ now ? i dont know why people would do that unless its the dot com crash in the 90s

I think this is the best analysis I've seen of this security. There's always the risk of TAT 'running with the money' so to say, but the Div/BTC beats ASICMiner's best Div so far (with ASICM valued at 2.9 currently) up to 50M difficulty

Just bought a few bonds - lost a little bitcoin as I didnt know how to use a share option correctly lol

You can't compare the VM bonds to AM shares in the same way because TAT's VM is functionally a loan with repayment terms dictated by the contract, while AM's output is measured against the company hashrate.  In short - TAT chose what coupon rate to pay his bondholders ahead of time in a forward contract while AM's running dividend is determined by the week's block output.

This is why you can't make an apples-to-apples comparison of bonds and stocks.  One is an equity whose returns are determined by market production/mining conditions and the other is simply a non-expiring forward contract.  The VM bonds aren't 'backed' by TAT's AM shares; the AM shares are just the course of revenue he's using to pay the bondholders.  The bondholders only have a claim to the equity in the AM shares if TAT's cash flows hit zero and he's forced to sell AM shares to pay his contract-mandated coupons.

Here is where.

oh okay..

I have 1250 shares of VIRTUALMINER.
That is 8.75 btc investment for .04BTC/day, or .28BTC/week, or 14.56BTC/year.

This looks like a much larger dividend return annually than AM.

where did i mess up

% annual return is hard to predict for both of them, because they are different things. AM is mining + re-investment + sales. TAT.VM is income per hash. So over the long term, AM dividends will not drop as fast as the TAT.VM dividends. TAT.VM dividends will fall when difficulty rises. AM dividends will fall when they can't deploy enough new hash power to make up for difficulty increases or when their sales drop.

Can we look at % annual return, rather than direct share comparison?  (sorry I thought this was obvious)
  This would be like me saying asicminer-PT pay more divdends than asicminer-TAT -- obviously not true, as their dividend return % should be the same.   

Lets talk strictly % return please..

For the cost of 1 asicminer you get ~385 virtualmine. 1 share Asicminer div is ~0.036 a week. 1 share Virtualmine is 0.00003223 a day. I'm sure I don't have to spell it out for you. Virtualmine is ~2.4x more a week. If you're look solely on dividends virtualmine is undervalue compare to asicminer.

They should be (and are) less - you need to be looking at ASICMINER in terms of their hashing power when comparing.  1 MH/S of ASICMINER shares pays a LOT more than 1 TAT.VM share (as it also gets incoem from sales of hardware).  It also COSTS a lot more - so no point directly comparing them as it's apples and oranges.

If ASICMINER sells a bunch of hardware and pays a massive dividend, TAT.VM won't get a bigger dividend.  If ASICMINER holds back most (or all) of a week's dividend to pay for development costs TAT.VM won't get a reduced dividend.  TAT.VM will get paid what its contract defines - and the ASICMINER shares are the visible proof that those commitments can be met.

Show your math plz.

I'm confused.. how do these dividends pay more than ASICMINER dividends if they are BACKED by AM shares?  Shouldn't they be the same?

Looks like that's going to be a useful site - thanks for the link.

Hey, thank you!!!

I've actually been helping out SMiGuel by sponsoring his chart website for about a month now. I also have a few other sites I have helped with coin, including www.coinflow.co, a great stock chart website that is in development, check it out!

Hope I'm not distracting the thread from all the BTC-TE/DMS.MINING talk, it really is quite interesting to see these things get discussed 
Had to interrupt and bring this up though. I'm not sure how long this has been up (it is the first time I have ever looked at the page) but if you click the link on TAT.VIRTUALMINE's Bitfunder profile page, where he mentions Asicminer's Hashrate charts- http://www.asicminercharts.com/live/
Right up at the tip top of the page, "Sponsored by TAT Investments"!!!!!!!!!!
If this is old news, ignore me. I'm just a poor newb  . But if this is new, Congratulations TAT!!!
Do you prefer to go by TAT? lol
Anyways, the point of my post is to say that it is good to see that you are building your name and reputation up even higher. I have seen (so far ) from looking around on the forums that you seem to have a fair amount of respect for and among the community and often put in a honest, rational opinion. I hope you have a lot of success, and not only because I would be benefiting from it as well lol but because it seems like you deserve it.

TAT,
Outstanding 20971 / 100000 Issued
971, is that the more will be released later shares?

the thing is, you can't convert either to the other in the equivalent hashrate since they're both virtual assets... (you can't take 5 of TAT.VIRTUALMINE and convert to hashrate, then sell that hashrate for 1 DMS.MINING. You have to do it in BTC, which is not tied to the hashrate at all.) At least, not like how you could take a BFL device and trade it for an equivalent hashrate in Avalon chips, anyway. They're both really nothing more than 2nd-tier bonds* backed by the issuers' reputations and promises to repay. So value against each other can't be made against hashrate, it has to be compared using dividends.

I know, I know, it's splitting hairs since the dividends for both are exactly 5:1 to each other, identical to the hashrate ratio between them. But a better comparison would be "TAT.VIRTUALMINE pays x dividends per day, and DMS.MINING pays 5x dividends per day (ignoring the DMS.SELLING dividend for the sake of simplicity here, since the conversation is focusing on the mining divs anyway.)" Then you're left with rate of return on the original purchase price, along with a confidence multiplier based on the reputation and promise to repay of the issuer in regards to the actual dividends. When you boil it down, THAT'S the real comparison between the two issues - ability to repay and track record of repayment. (This appears to me to be flat between the two, by the way.) The wrench in the clockworks is the way the purchase price is worked out with DMS, since you can buy more at the lower static value the issuer sets if the market price of the derivatives start to approach TAT's value per hash. DMS.MINING is effectively building in a permanent undervalue situation compared to TAT's free market rate, effectively capping the rate of return for DMS "buy and hold" investors (UNLESS the "SELLING" derivative works a different way than I understand, but I'm pretty sure I understand it.) Kinda weird way to do it if you ask me, but it's an extremely interesting experiment at the very least.

^{*I don't mean "2nd-tier" as a slight by ANY means - I mean they are both backed by other company's assets, and not on their own assets. I own a very little of both primarily for the educational value.}

Or both are overvalued - but TAT more so.
Or both are undervalued - but DMS.MINING more so.

All other things being equal (which isn't necessarily the case - there's valid scenarios in which each is worth more than the other) DMS.MINING will trade lower anyway - as it has multiple sources of supply (anyone who buys DMS.PURCHASE can sell them) so doesn't have the enforced shortage of supply that all other similar(ish) securities have.