Technology should make things simple!

Hans17

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Quote from: Kprawn on March 23, 2018, 12:45:24 PM

I cannot understand why Bitcoin companies over complicate matters, when the technology should have been the easier

alternative to other methods of doing things. I did the latest Firmware upgrade for the Ledger Nano S today and it was a

absolute nightmare. Luckily for me, I have a vast IT knowledge and also very good troubleshooting skills, but the average

computer user would have thrown in the towel. Angry

Why would someone go through all this stress to upgrade firmware manually, if they could simply use cash or credit cards?

Our alternative, should be the best solution and the easiest to use, not the other way around. Angry

Good luck to the other Ledger Nano S owners, this is going to test your patience. Roll Eyes

Well sometimes technology make things complicated , sometimes it can cause a lot of different problem , and as for your statement that is why we need the technology to find the answer on our problem to have a specific solution to learn and to apply it. And yes this would need a whole lot of patience and efforts.

Red-Apple

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yeah, unfortunately sometimes these things become harder than they really should be. and the bad part is that we usually tell others that using hardware wallets is the easy way for newbies and non techy people to use a secure cold storage for their bitcoins!
but it is partly because it is new and sometimes these hardships are inevitable. hopefully there will always be enough good walkthroughs online for people to follow and make it easier.

qiwoman2

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I think over time and especially with the new generation, more and more people will understand and be able to use blockchain technology like it is second nature. I remember when the Internet first came out, I was overwhelmed with this new technological breakthrough and it took me a few years to master some of the things associated with it. I think as time goes by and the infrastructure around Bitcoin evolves, so will the technology become easier to operate and understand by the Noobs.

nc50lc

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Quote from: buwaytress on March 25, 2018, 08:12:05 AM

Quote from: nc50lc on March 24, 2018, 12:26:57 AM

Technology has never been uncomplicated.
-snip-

-snip-
Even on basis of that count, I'm not sure I agree that hardware wallets can't be considered end-user products. Or is it really the aim that hardware wallet owners should still retain elitism?

The problem with the mainstream is: not everyone has equal intelligence, age, time for research or money to use a certain service or product.

Hardware wallets for example isn't foolproof nor cheap.
A 12-year old, unemployed man, ~~my cat~~ and a busy professional all belongs to the mainstream and can't use a hardware wallet or electrum and especially not bitcoin core.
They need something that is a ready-to-go product like my example that does the job in a click of a button.

In comparison: Computers.
Computers aren't simple, when it first came to existence, all it can do are simple tasks that even the mainstream can't understand and purchase.
Look at it now, there's OS depending on the user's preference, and judge what the mainstream have chosen.
The one which is simpler to use.

All I'm saying is, (in OS term) what we are using today can be the "Linux" of tomorrow.

maminelly

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i think it's a good idea that the technology makes as a simple way many here configured things like a mail server in the past. While there are thousands of guide around right now, at the early stages of the internet it was an absolute slow...everybody has linux OS in their pockets and they don't even know that Bitcoin is early stages still and I wouldn't expect that to change anytime soon and become more stronger...

buwaytress

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Quote from: nc50lc on March 24, 2018, 12:26:57 AM

Technology has never been uncomplicated.
The term "Technology make things simple" only targets the mainstream which aren't the main users of any technology, they are the end-users.
It was advertised "as is" by the developers, manufacturers or service providers of technology-based products/systems, which doesn't see technology as simple as end-users experience.

Those hardware wallets, full nodes and 3rd-party clients cannot be considered as end-user items/software, that's why those has never been simple to use for a regular user.
What can be considered as an end-product is (for example) Coins (Payment system based in Asia). With that, people (whatever the age) can use bitcoin for paying bills online, remittance and personal trades without even having a single idea of what bitcoin is. (The same reason why there are too many Asian spammers here)

Isn't that sort of the point of OP bringing it up? If mainstream use for Bitcoin is what's desired, then the developers should see tech as a simple end-user experience. I'm as mainstream as it gets when it comes to Bitcoin users and I'm fully certain OP is many times more able than me technically - which is why I'm very thankful for the simplicity of Electrum. Ledger certainly should be, they subscribe to the French Consumer Code anyway =p

Even on basis of that count, I'm not sure I agree that hardware wallets can't be considered end-user products. Or is it really the aim that hardware wallet owners should still retain elitism?

Karartma1

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I think many here configured things like a mail server in the past. While there are thousands of guide around right now, at the early stages of the internet it was an absolute nightmare! Shall we talk about linux? Now everybody has linux OS in their pockets (android anyone) and they don't even know that!
Bitcoin is early stages still and I wouldn't expect that to change anytime soon! Wink

maminelly

newbie

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for the begginer using this kind of technology,it's true that they make in simple way so that they understand and they can follow step by step....In every good things there should always be bad things ,in every success there should always be a failure! Technology gives the people an ease of work, there will always be an effect. It makes things easier, but it makes someone to handle..

Kakmakr

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I think the reason for this chaos was that the firmware upgrade was rushed to protect the users. I would rather prefer a rushed upgrade when it comes to the safety of my customers, than delaying the upgrade for beta testing on all the different operating systems. Windows and a lot of these browsers are inherently buggy, which explains why Ledger wants to develop their own software to interact with their device.

Yes, sometimes you have to make some compromises when it comes to safety.

daddypastes

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we should know that our technology now is improving than before so we can't expect them to tell users to send them their devices in order for them to get updates which is absolutely absurd. If it's hard as you say so I guess they could automate the process more or something, specially when many non-techy people tend to opt for hardware wallets. At least be thankful for them providing update and not lunching newer version with improvements in order to sell more....

BuySomeBitcoins

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They tried to do that with Windows OS and MacOS, however Linux is used more and by all even though it is more complicated.

Simple means having limited permissions and access to the technology, it is not always better - it makes people stupid and think less.

bob123

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Quote from: malboroman on March 24, 2018, 08:42:52 AM

I also don't understand why the price of it is so high, when it just a simple token similar to RSA tokens.

A RSA token generates a one-time password based on the timestamp and a private key using an AES algorithm.
RSA tokens usually don't have any encryption inside. They are only used for authentication.

The nano s is a hardware wallet which is capable of signing different transactions using different signing algorithms and addresses.
Additionally it gives you the opportunity to check the details on the screen and confirm via buttons. It has a smart chip built in and the seed stored encrypted inside.
The Fido U2F application is comparable to the RSA token.

There are quite a few differences between those two products which justify the price of the nano s.

ranochigo

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Quote from: malboroman on March 24, 2018, 08:42:52 AM

Fully agree with you, i also owner of Ledger Nano S and it's nightmare to manage it sometimes. I also don't understand why the price of it is so high, when it just a simple token similar to RSA tokens.

Whilst I don't find hardware wallets practical or as secure as I'd like, it's certainly justified for the price of hardware wallets to be slightly higher than expected. Hardware wallets doesn't employ directly the technologies that are matured. The whole device is designed by them and its not just a "token". It does store the private key and sign the transactions on it.

RSA tokens literally just generates numbers and that's pretty cheap to make.

malboroman

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Quote from: Kprawn on March 23, 2018, 12:45:24 PM

I cannot understand why Bitcoin companies over complicate matters, when the technology should have been the easier

alternative to other methods of doing things. I did the latest Firmware upgrade for the Ledger Nano S today and it was a

absolute nightmare. Luckily for me, I have a vast IT knowledge and also very good troubleshooting skills, but the average

computer user would have thrown in the towel. Angry

Why would someone go through all this stress to upgrade firmware manually, if they could simply use cash or credit cards?

Our alternative, should be the best solution and the easiest to use, not the other way around. Angry

Good luck to the other Ledger Nano S owners, this is going to test your patience. Roll Eyes

Fully agree with you, i also owner of Ledger Nano S and it's nightmare to manage it sometimes. I also don't understand why the price of it is so high, when it just a simple token similar to RSA tokens.

Lucius

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Quote from: Kprawn on March 24, 2018, 07:38:09 AM

Quote from: LeGaulois on March 23, 2018, 07:05:14 PM

@Kprawn

What was the pain while updating the firmware? Just asking because I have one and have not done anything yet.
While reading your post I was thinking th same but after changed my mind because after all, one of the tagline used with cryptocurrencies is :

Be Your Own Bank. So with the motivation should also come the motivation to do the banker job. Manage infrastructures, accounting, etc Grin

I did a lot of reading before I started doing this, because I saw a lot of people complaining about the problems they were

experiencing with this upgrade. Do not use Windows 7 to do this, because I have read that they have not released a fix for

the problems people are getting with Windows 7. Mine hanged at "Bootloader" and "Update" and every step of the way. I

have done firmware upgrades on other devices before, so it is not foreign territory for me.

Use this : https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/82e770/new_firmware_update_141_available_for_the_nano_s/

and https://support.ledgerwallet.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001340473 and hope for the best. Roll Eyes

I also have some problems with firmware upgrade on Ledger Nano S and Windows 7 OS,but there is a fix for all difficulties to which user may encounter
during the update.I agree that such things should be much simpler,for the average user such experience can be pretty bad.I think that Ledger was in a hurry with this update because some vulnerabilities have been discovered, although they posted a very detailed guide some things could not be predicted.

Don Pedro Dinero is post link to thread where I write about my experience,so before update it would be good to read that,time saving guaranteed

Kprawn

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Quote from: LeGaulois on March 23, 2018, 07:05:14 PM

@Kprawn

What was the pain while updating the firmware? Just asking because I have one and have not done anything yet.
While reading your post I was thinking th same but after changed my mind because after all, one of the tagline used with cryptocurrencies is :

Be Your Own Bank. So with the motivation should also come the motivation to do the banker job. Manage infrastructures, accounting, etc Grin

I did a lot of reading before I started doing this, because I saw a lot of people complaining about the problems they were

experiencing with this upgrade. Do not use Windows 7 to do this, because I have read that they have not released a fix for

the problems people are getting with Windows 7. Mine hanged at "Bootloader" and "Update" and every step of the way. I

have done firmware upgrades on other devices before, so it is not foreign territory for me.

Use this : https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/82e770/new_firmware_update_141_available_for_the_nano_s/

and https://support.ledgerwallet.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001340473 and hope for the best. Roll Eyes

bob123

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Quote from: Kprawn on March 23, 2018, 12:45:24 PM

alternative to other methods of doing things. I did the latest Firmware upgrade for the Ledger Nano S today and it was a
absolute nightmare. Luckily for me, I have a vast IT knowledge and also very good troubleshooting skills, but the average
computer user would have thrown in the towel. Angry

What happened? Usually updating firmware works without any flaws.
Sometimes the OS is kinda 'messing around' with your USB devices.

Quote from: Kprawn on March 23, 2018, 12:45:24 PM

Why would someone go through all this stress to upgrade firmware manually, if they could simply use cash or credit cards?
Our alternative, should be the best solution and the easiest to use, not the other way around. Angry

Well.. i don't use BTC because its the 'easiest'.
The 'easiest' is for the old and fragile people. Without challenging your mind it will degenerate as fast as a LN transaction.
BTC is made to be the only one in control of your money while at the same time allowing fast transactions around the world.

Quote from: Kprawn on March 23, 2018, 12:45:24 PM

Good luck to the other Ledger Nano S owners, this is going to test your patience. Roll Eyes

Already updated my nano s. Was done within 15 seconds.
What about explaining what happened? Did you find out what caused your issue? I doubt it was ledger's fault.

Don Pedro Dinero

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Quote from: LeGaulois on March 23, 2018, 07:05:14 PM

@Kprawn
What was the pain while updating the firmware? Just asking because I have one and have not done anything yet.
While reading your post I was thinking th same but after changed my mind because after all, one of the tagline used with cryptocurrencies is :
Be Your Own Bank. So with the motivation should also come the motivation to do the banker job. Manage infrastructures, accounting, etc Grin

You can see some descriptions on this post:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ledger-nano-s-firmware-update-141-3077490

I thought my ledger nano was broken but luckily I found the solution on that post.

As for OP’s question, I think it is a matter of time. I expect future versions of hardware wallets to be much simpler than the present ones.

nc50lc

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Self-proclaimed Genius

Technology has never been uncomplicated.
The term "Technology make things simple" only targets the mainstream which aren't the main users of any technology, they are the end-users.
It was advertised "as is" by the developers, manufacturers or service providers of technology-based products/systems, which doesn't see technology as simple as end-users experience.

Those hardware wallets, full nodes and 3rd-party clients cannot be considered as end-user items/software, that's why those has never been simple to use for a regular user.
What can be considered as an end-product is (for example) Coins (Payment system based in Asia). With that, people (whatever the age) can use bitcoin for paying bills online, remittance and personal trades without even having a single idea of what bitcoin is. (The same reason why there are too many Asian spammers here)

abaidudez

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Quote from: Kprawn on March 23, 2018, 12:45:24 PM

I cannot understand why Bitcoin companies over complicate matters, when the technology should have been the easier

alternative to other methods of doing things. I did the latest Firmware upgrade for the Ledger Nano S today and it was a

absolute nightmare. Luckily for me, I have a vast IT knowledge and also very good troubleshooting skills, but the average

computer user would have thrown in the towel. Angry

Why would someone go through all this stress to upgrade firmware manually, if they could simply use cash or credit cards?

Our alternative, should be the best solution and the easiest to use, not the other way around. Angry

Good luck to the other Ledger Nano S owners, this is going to test your patience. Roll Eyes

It should be like that mate. Technology should make things easier and not to complicate it. But what you experience in upgrading Firmware manually seems to be complicated and will lead to something worst if not done correctly. What if a newbie happen to experience that thing? What will happen? He will be in sad situation that he will need someone to fix it. I hope they can make it easier for the benefit of all. Technology makes comfort not make problem. Angry

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