Tesla Bought 1.5 B in Bitcoins - page 4.

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Quote from: baeva on May 31, 2021, 04:02:40 PM

Everyone believes Elon Musk so sincerely, his tweets. He's not a stupid man, I don't argue, and he probably won't lie. But after a few "manipulations" in the cryptocurrency market, users asked him to show his wallet address/wallet itself to make sure Tesla didn't sell her bitcoins. Because everyone has suspicions that they did it at about $50-60k

Did they show the wallet address?

If not then the speculation is still here that they really sold because the fact that Tesla stops accepting bitcoin, that gives a negative indication that Tesla or Elon is already done with bitcoin as for now, if he sold at that price, they would easily make billions of profit because for sure they both at a very low price.

Also, Elon has been playing with DOGE, he sure has made a lot of money on that as well.

baeva

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Everyone believes Elon Musk so sincerely, his tweets. He's not a stupid man, I don't argue, and he probably won't lie. But after a few "manipulations" in the cryptocurrency market, users asked him to show his wallet address/wallet itself to make sure Tesla didn't sell her bitcoins. Because everyone has suspicions that they did it at about $50-60k

Wawa2013

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Quote from: Lanatsa on May 17, 2021, 06:55:04 PM

Quote from: Wawa2013 on May 17, 2021, 06:33:45 PM

Quote from: jaysabi on May 17, 2021, 05:53:08 PM

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on May 17, 2021, 09:56:50 AM

~

It is indeed very difficult to prove that Elon Musk has benefited from the market manipulation he has been doing so far. But what is certain is that
he is indeed a troll who always plays tricks on his followers, the best way is that we should not be influenced by whatever Elon Musk said on twitter.
Because indeed dangerous if we are influenced by Elon Musk, because of what he has done with cryptocurrency so far, It seems to me that
Elon Musk is only selfish just for personal gain.

As a billionaire then theres nothing into your mind but rather on how to make profits and this is why he do make himself to get engage with cryptocurrencies but this is only an assumption

because we don't know on whats inside into his mind but with common sense then you can eventually say that he do aim for profits.I don't believe much about supporting it

because of its true actual usage or relevance and now his sentiments are going between positive and negative which did really result into some hate into the entire community.

I admit that Elon Musk as a billionaire must be thinking about how to continue to be able to make money. And suddenly, in recent months Elon Musk
has indeed been more involved with the crypto world. It turns out that now it is increasingly apparent that Elon Musk's goal is to be involved with
crypto, which is to be able to generate large profits. Therefore, several times Elon Musk used his huge followers to manipulate prices. In the end,
Elon Musk did have to endure the hatred of the crypto community.

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on May 19, 2021, 09:34:36 AM

Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 19, 2021, 07:47:38 AM

When Tesla bought the ~46k bitcoin, they did not place a buy order for 46k @ $32,000/each. They bought ~46k bitcoin at an average price of $32k. This means some of the coin they bought was at a higher price, and some of it was at a lower price.

This is important because when you sell bitcoin, you can sell specific tax lots for tax (and accounting) purposes. They could have sold some of their coin that they bought at a higher or lower price than their average purchase price. I would also point out that which tax lots Tesla used is separate and distinct from the inputs they use when they transfer the coin.

Is it even possible? Here in India, we use the FIFO (first in, first out) principle for tax purpose. That means that the earliest purchased coins are considered to be sold, if the sale is partial. As far as I know, the user doesn't have the freedom to specify which lot he has sold. Or is the tax calculation different in the United States? Also, I am not sure whether Telsa needs to pay any taxes here. Since they are a corporation, rather than short term capital gains tax, corporate tax will be applicable. And the tax rate will be near zero, since their overall PAT is in negative.

Yes, it is possible. (not tax advice -- you should consult with a tax professional for individualized tax advice regarding your specific situation). Taxpayers usually have to specify if they want to use FIFO, LIFO, or specific tax lots when they file their tax return, and generally cannot change the method from year to year without certain criteria being met. A corporation may not get special treatment for holding an asset for greater than a year, however choosing a particular tax lot may be beneficial to minimize their long term tax liability, for example, they may accelerate income if taxes are slated to rise in coming years, or may lower their income so they pay less taxes today, and can put the money from the delayed tax liability to use by investing it.

In any case, even if Tesla were to use FIFO, or LIFO, the profit would most likely not match the average price Tesla paid for the coin.

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 19, 2021, 07:47:38 AM

When Tesla bought the ~46k bitcoin, they did not place a buy order for 46k @ $32,000/each. They bought ~46k bitcoin at an average price of $32k. This means some of the coin they bought was at a higher price, and some of it was at a lower price.

This is important because when you sell bitcoin, you can sell specific tax lots for tax (and accounting) purposes. They could have sold some of their coin that they bought at a higher or lower price than their average purchase price. I would also point out that which tax lots Tesla used is separate and distinct from the inputs they use when they transfer the coin.

Is it even possible? Here in India, we use the FIFO (first in, first out) principle for tax purpose. That means that the earliest purchased coins are considered to be sold, if the sale is partial. As far as I know, the user doesn't have the freedom to specify which lot he has sold. Or is the tax calculation different in the United States? Also, I am not sure whether Telsa needs to pay any taxes here. Since they are a corporation, rather than short term capital gains tax, corporate tax will be applicable. And the tax rate will be near zero, since their overall PAT is in negative.

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 19, 2021, 07:47:38 AM

They bought ~46k bitcoin at an average price of $32k.

Good point. I never doubted 36k was an average of buys. But I totally overlooked the consequences on the tax aspect of this. But of course as I said, I am not an accountant. So yes, probably is some consequence of the FIFO/LIFO scheme that can change the final, local figures.

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Quote from: fillippone on May 18, 2021, 05:41:52 PM

The only thing that doesn't add up is the Profit on the sale. They might have attributed some of the impairment to this sale.
I am not an accountant so I cannot justify if it is plausible.
But the 122 Million I found is quite different from the 101 Million figure they provided.

When Tesla bought the ~46k bitcoin, they did not place a buy order for 46k @ $32,000/each. They bought ~46k bitcoin at an average price of $32k. This means some of the coin they bought was at a higher price, and some of it was at a lower price.

This is important because when you sell bitcoin, you can sell specific tax lots for tax (and accounting) purposes. They could have sold some of their coin that they bought at a higher or lower price than their average purchase price. I would also point out that which tax lots Tesla used is separate and distinct from the inputs they use when they transfer the coin.

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According to fillippone, Tesla is still in profit from their Bitcoin investment (if the initial purchase price was around 32K). As per the current exchange rates, they are worth some $1.725 billion (i.e an unrealized gain of $375 million). The Tesla shareholders can't blame Elon even if he sells all of the BTC now, because even then they will be in profit. But I can't guarantee that there won't be any action from the SEC, if they do that immediately.

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Quote from: jaysabi on May 07, 2021, 03:51:47 PM

I think it's a lot closer than it was. It's all still speculation until we can get a hard number from a regulatory filing, but until then everyone is trying to piece it together based on information that has been publicly released. It's like trying to assemble a puzzle where you don't even know how many pieces there are or what shape they're supposed to be.

I had a second thought about this. I think we know we have enough public information about this.

Let's just recap everything.

Tesla Invested 1.5 Billions in Bitcoins
Tesla sold 10% of their stash for a proceed of 272 Millions
At the end of the quarter their Bitcoin investments had a value of 2.48 Billion
On the sales, they had a positive impact of 101 Millions
On the Total Stash they had an impairment of 27 Million

We also know that at the end of Q1 the bitcoin price was 58,800 (CME reference rate).

So we know that 90% of Tesla Position at 58,800 was worth 2.48 Billion. From here it's easy to work out the number of bitcoin of the residual position. When we know how many bitcoins are left on Tesla Account we can compute 1/9 of that number that was sold (and the corresponding price) and work out the initial number of bitcoins, the sum of the two values.
From here we can find the original price.

A picture is worth 1000 words:

Spreadsheet Link

The numbers are quite similar to those I found earlier on the thread.
The only thing that doesn't add up is the Profit on the sale. They might have attributed some of the impairment to this sale.
I am not an accountant so I cannot justify if it is plausible.
But the 122 Million I found is quite different from the 101 Million figure they provided.

So, finally, the Tranches might look like:

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Quote from: jaysabi on May 17, 2021, 05:53:08 PM

This is the thing... in order to "punish" him for manipulating the markets you have to prove he profited off the manipulation or manipulated to benefit those close to him. It's an almost impossible standard, made even harder by the fact that he's a troll and an asshole who shoots his mouth off about all sorts of things. The morale of the story is you shouldn't be doing anything Elon says because he's a total basketcase.

Elon doesn't need to benefit from this directly. What if he had asked some of his friends to accumulate a few billions worth of Dogecoin, before he pumped it? (I don't even know whether it is possible to purchase that much Doge, given the limited liquidity of that coin). In this case, there is nothing that links Elon to the profiteering from Dogecoin, but eventually he is getting the benefit. But I agree that these sort of arguments doesn't stand before the court. In the end, the fault was ours, for giving too much importance for this mentally deranged lunatic initially.

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Quote from: Wawa2013 on May 17, 2021, 06:33:45 PM

Quote from: jaysabi on May 17, 2021, 05:53:08 PM

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on May 17, 2021, 09:56:50 AM

So Elon has clarified that Tesla hasn't sold any Bitcoin. And I don't think that Tesla has purchased any new coins either, given his earlier tweets. So there is no evidence to claim that Elon actually profited from the market manipulation of Bitcoin. This guy is making his moves in a planned manner, and right now it is impossible for the SEC to touch him. Remember that Elon is the same guy who once tweeted that Tesla shares are overpriced, and that resulted in a crash in Tesla prices.

This is the thing... in order to "punish" him for manipulating the markets you have to prove he profited off the manipulation or manipulated to benefit those close to him. It's an almost impossible standard, made even harder by the fact that he's a troll and an asshole who shoots his mouth off about all sorts of things. The morale of the story is you shouldn't be doing anything Elon says because he's a total basketcase.

It is indeed very difficult to prove that Elon Musk has benefited from the market manipulation he has been doing so far. But what is certain is that
he is indeed a troll who always plays tricks on his followers, the best way is that we should not be influenced by whatever Elon Musk said on twitter.
Because indeed dangerous if we are influenced by Elon Musk, because of what he has done with cryptocurrency so far, It seems to me that
Elon Musk is only selfish just for personal gain.

As a billionaire then theres nothing into your mind but rather on how to make profits and this is why he do make himself to get engage with cryptocurrencies but this is only an assumption

because we don't know on whats inside into his mind but with common sense then you can eventually say that he do aim for profits.I don't believe much about supporting it

because of its true actual usage or relevance and now his sentiments are going between positive and negative which did really result into some hate into the entire community.

Wawa2013

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Quote from: jaysabi on May 17, 2021, 05:53:08 PM

Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on May 17, 2021, 09:56:50 AM

So Elon has clarified that Tesla hasn't sold any Bitcoin. And I don't think that Tesla has purchased any new coins either, given his earlier tweets. So there is no evidence to claim that Elon actually profited from the market manipulation of Bitcoin. This guy is making his moves in a planned manner, and right now it is impossible for the SEC to touch him. Remember that Elon is the same guy who once tweeted that Tesla shares are overpriced, and that resulted in a crash in Tesla prices.

This is the thing... in order to "punish" him for manipulating the markets you have to prove he profited off the manipulation or manipulated to benefit those close to him. It's an almost impossible standard, made even harder by the fact that he's a troll and an asshole who shoots his mouth off about all sorts of things. The morale of the story is you shouldn't be doing anything Elon says because he's a total basketcase.

It is indeed very difficult to prove that Elon Musk has benefited from the market manipulation he has been doing so far. But what is certain is that
he is indeed a troll who always plays tricks on his followers, the best way is that we should not be influenced by whatever Elon Musk said on twitter.
Because indeed dangerous if we are influenced by Elon Musk, because of what he has done with cryptocurrency so far, It seems to me that
Elon Musk is only selfish just for personal gain.

jaysabi

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on May 17, 2021, 09:56:50 AM

So Elon has clarified that Tesla hasn't sold any Bitcoin. And I don't think that Tesla has purchased any new coins either, given his earlier tweets. So there is no evidence to claim that Elon actually profited from the market manipulation of Bitcoin. This guy is making his moves in a planned manner, and right now it is impossible for the SEC to touch him. Remember that Elon is the same guy who once tweeted that Tesla shares are overpriced, and that resulted in a crash in Tesla prices.

This is the thing... in order to "punish" him for manipulating the markets you have to prove he profited off the manipulation or manipulated to benefit those close to him. It's an almost impossible standard, made even harder by the fact that he's a troll and an asshole who shoots his mouth off about all sorts of things. The morale of the story is you shouldn't be doing anything Elon says because he's a total basketcase.

oHnK

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on May 17, 2021, 09:56:50 AM

So Elon has clarified that Tesla hasn't sold any Bitcoin. And I don't think that Tesla has purchased any new coins either, given his earlier tweets. So there is no evidence to claim that Elon actually profited from the market manipulation of Bitcoin. This guy is making his moves in a planned manner, and right now it is impossible for the SEC to touch him. Remember that Elon is the same guy who once tweeted that Tesla shares are overpriced, and that resulted in a crash in Tesla prices.

If this is true, then it would be much better for Elon to be checked by the SEC for proof that Elon didn't buy 10,000 BTC when the price plummeted due to an issue he had developed. The SEC has the power to investigate manipulators. Because after all, the most disadvantaged are the penniless investors who set aside their savings for investment but the price is played by whales to enrich themselves.

Vishnu.Reang

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So Elon has clarified that Tesla hasn't sold any Bitcoin. And I don't think that Tesla has purchased any new coins either, given his earlier tweets. So there is no evidence to claim that Elon actually profited from the market manipulation of Bitcoin. This guy is making his moves in a planned manner, and right now it is impossible for the SEC to touch him. Remember that Elon is the same guy who once tweeted that Tesla shares are overpriced, and that resulted in a crash in Tesla prices.

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Quote from: Mauser on May 17, 2021, 03:16:59 AM

Quote from: fillippone on May 17, 2021, 02:56:05 AM

Apparently, their stance flipped once more.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1394170030741413888?s=21

Until later, when we will discover they actually increased their BTC stash.
It's an unregulated market, after all. We don't know anything about Tesla's total position, derivatives included. Even if I strongly doubt they are overall short.

This is so crazy right now with Elon Musk, it looks like he can completely influence the BTC price on its own. I am not trusting it anymore, how can you completely change your mind on Bitcoins withing a few months? Nothing really changed, it was always electricity intense to mine bitcoins. But using FIAT currency also costs a lot of energy - just by using all the ATMs around the world a lot of energy is consumed, they need lights 24/7, security, storage, resupply, etc. Who can actually verify that nothing is being sold, or he is not buying new coins after sending the BTC price 20% down? This feels like manipulation and should be investigated in my opinion.

Even though I agree with you on this, but who is going to do that? Investigate and perhaps punish him for manipulating the cryptocurrency market. Is the crypto space under regulation now? I believe that these are some of the issues and he knows he can do whatever and get away with it that was why he acted that way and like you said, I too want to believe that there are other aspects of the economy that consumes even more energy than what is said for Bitcoin.

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Quote from: fillippone on May 17, 2021, 02:56:05 AM

Apparently, their stance flipped once more.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1394170030741413888?s=21

Until later, when we will discover they actually increased their BTC stash.
It's an unregulated market, after all. We don't know anything about Tesla's total position, derivatives included. Even if I strongly doubt they are overall short.

This is so crazy right now with Elon Musk, it looks like he can completely influence the BTC price on its own. I am not trusting it anymore, how can you completely change your mind on Bitcoins withing a few months? Nothing really changed, it was always electricity intense to mine bitcoins. But using FIAT currency also costs a lot of energy - just by using all the ATMs around the world a lot of energy is consumed, they need lights 24/7, security, storage, resupply, etc. Who can actually verify that nothing is being sold, or he is not buying new coins after sending the BTC price 20% down? This feels like manipulation and should be investigated in my opinion.

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Quote from: PrimeNumber7 on May 17, 2021, 01:11:51 AM

It is strange that Musk/Tesla flipped his stance on bitcoin so quickly.

My guess is that Tesla buying bitcoin was the reason why the price went up to ~50k, or at least was a major contributor. If Tesla reveals that it has in fact sold it's bitcoin, I would expect the price to fall pretty significantly. The price of bitcoin has recently fallen a decent amount, so it is somewhat likely that a large holder has recently sold.

Musk recently said that Tesla is working with the DOGE devs to improve DOGE. If Tesla starts to accept DOGE, I would expect the DOGE market cap to exceed that of bitcoin...that obviously would not speak to the technical specifications of either.

Apparently, their stance flipped once more.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1394170030741413888?s=21

Until later, when we will discover they actually increased their BTC stash.
It's an unregulated market, after all. We don't know anything about Tesla's total position, derivatives included. Even if I strongly doubt they are overall short.

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Quote from: fillippone on May 16, 2021, 03:54:13 PM

Breaking news:
Musk Implies Tesla May Sell or Has Sold Bitcoin Holdings

It is strange that Musk/Tesla flipped his stance on bitcoin so quickly.

My guess is that Tesla buying bitcoin was the reason why the price went up to ~50k, or at least was a major contributor. If Tesla reveals that it has in fact sold it's bitcoin, I would expect the price to fall pretty significantly. The price of bitcoin has recently fallen a decent amount, so it is somewhat likely that a large holder has recently sold.

Musk recently said that Tesla is working with the DOGE devs to improve DOGE. If Tesla starts to accept DOGE, I would expect the DOGE market cap to exceed that of bitcoin...that obviously would not speak to the technical specifications of either.

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Breaking news:
Musk Implies Tesla May Sell or Has Sold Bitcoin Holdings

Quote

Elon Musk implied in a Twitter exchange on Sunday that Tesla Inc. may sell or has sold its Bitcoin holdings.

It all started with a tweet from a person using the handle @CryptoWhale, which said, “Bitcoiners are going to slap themselves next quarter when they find out Tesla dumped the rest of their #Bitcoin holdings. With the amount of hate @elonmusk is getting, I wouldn’t blame him...”

Topic: Tesla Bought 1.5 B in Bitcoins - page 4. (Read 2648 times)