Topic: The Art of Exploiting vs the Bad Habit of Scamming (Read 771 times)

Base on the op, my opinion about what did that person do about the bonus is that it is almost the same as stealing since that person abuse the issue on the site instead of reporting it to the platforn or customer support. I even found someone who played on a site and found bugs, issue and later on found a bug and able to withdraw lots of money.

Thanks for all your posts and opinions, I wish I had more merits to send And when it looks like I argue against your points/opinions, this is not personally against you and probably not even my own opinion, but to keep a discussion going and have different point-of-views, so don't be mad with me

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This would actually mean that LAngel's case wasn't a scam, since Bitcasino knew about the software issue and even knew the person was a bad actor, as they stated:



And this is something, which I find kind of "unfair", if that makes any sense. I know there is no way around it, but it's the same scenario. It's just that I am a private person with no T&C and no possibility to cancel/void an accepted bet, while bookmakers are always protected by their T&C and can basically do anything they want. Something which @Upgrade00 stated as well.

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If you did a huge scam, there is always the question, if you actually could enjoy the money - I know for myself I couldn't.

Then one could also think about who the person is, who is scamming. If it's some poorer guy, who regularly scams smaller amounts from a (rich) casino site to feed some hungry mouths or send his kids to school, then a lot of people would probably be ok with it. If it's a person who has enough money (well, what is enough money) and just scams money to buy things he doesn't need, then most people wouldn't be ok with it I guess.

And then there would always be a judgement according to whom you actually harm with a scam. There surely is some difference in public opinion about scamming a bank, an insurance, a casino or a private person.

I would take the perspective of the gamblers in this situation. Are there any rules protecting them and their wagers?
Going through the ToS of so many gambling sites, they put in lots of leeway and wiggle room which allows them to legally protect themselves should a flaw in their system be exploited. So when such flaws are brought to light, mostly when a big win happens, they reserve the right to refuse to pay the player.
We should also consider that many players may have unintentionally played games (such as betting above the payable multiplier limit) that would have been otherwise rejected were they to have hit a huge winning due to there being a flaw, but as they didn't, there was no issue and their stakes were lost, so they were always going to lose either way.

Taking advantage of a obvious system error is no doubt unethical, but does it qualify as scamming, I don't think so, as intention cannot be judged easily.
• If I visited an ATM and it dispensed more cash that I requested and I kept the money without counting it, that should not be a scam as I wasn't aware and not in the habit of counting cash I receive from a machine.
• If I indeed counted it and still kept the money (thinking; my lucky day), this is open to discussion, but possibly an exploit.
• But if I counted it, kept the money and attempted several other times to cheat the machine, this should be outrightly fraudulent as I'm taking advantage of an obvious glitch repeatedly with intent to cheat. A scam.

Intent is important both on the part of the platform and the gambler.
• If the same machine were to be underpaying people who use it and the providers were aware but left it as most were not aware, up until a scammer comes along and exploits that flaw to their advantage, and at this point they whip out their user agreements. Have they been running a scam?

Well, bookmakers have the right to not pay a bet since it could be an error of listing or because they are suspecting a rigged match.
I mean, they feel free to adapt and making what they want since you're using their service and accepting a TOS.
Likewise in my country (ITALY) we have a monopole about betting so fixed rules to be accepted, no real competitions etc etc.
For what I have seen, when there is an issue like this you're just not payed.

I think that this is ok. It's very rare as error, and most of the times... they just don't pay

Forcing the website to obtain a specific condition, no should not be ok. And of course they can't just not payed you if they find you're cheating

Absolutely not. You offered your bet = your bet has been accepted by some other one.
Like betting in an horse @1000 . Most of the times this horse is already out, it's your problem if you decide to make this bet...
There is the remote chance of an error listing or like "Pardubice" game, many horses that are running and you decide to bet on underdog

I think there is always a common sense / ethical to be used. Respect rules, respect TOS, respect local laws.

Sometimes ago a website has quoted Parma (Italian football team) to go in lower series (Serie A to Serie B).
However it was ABSOLUTELY sure they will go in the lower series due strong economic issues (they were selling autobus used for the player and so on). Some bookmakers were quoting the same ... They don't read newspapers? Yes probably

I will answer this honestly.


I don't really depend on one bookmaker so I usually check others so I have no problem with this one.



I discovered it, so I will be using it. This is an exploit and not a scam.



I will definitely take advantage of it, again, this is an exploit, it is a cheat. But, I can tell you, I will never be able to sleep for a while that is why I can just say that  I will take advantage of it but, to be honest, I won't. Did I know this beforehand or I accidentally found it? Either way, I might take 1 bet or 2 before reporting this.



I think I will be frustrated but I agree with @kire - cryptzino


There is a fine line between a scam and an exploit explained by @Lakai01. And there are two types of people behind the exploit. The ones that would be taking advantage of it and the ones that would be reporting it. Though I can't exploit anything and I don't do scams since I am not that kind of guy. Maybe we can also put cheating in here since that is when people take advantage of the exploit they know or found.

In my opinion, the boundaries between exploit and scam are clearly drawn. One must first look at what the two words actually mean:


"Scam" is defined as follows:

So with exploits I am dependent on someone else having made a mistake which I can now exploit. However, you had absolutely no influence on the fact that the error is also built in. This is different with a scam attack, where I try to get my victim to make a mistake, so I deliberately deceive him.

What the two have in common, however, is deliberately fraudulent behaviour. As an exploit user or a scamer, I am 100% aware that I am doing something wrong and that I am gaining an advantage in the wrong way. Someone who buys a watch set at $10 on Amazon that actually costs $1000 knows this just as well as someone who searches for victims of a scam attack in Telegram.

I would consider every situation as an exploit instead of scamming, that is, if the faulty software was found and was intentionally taken advantage of, just like how LAngel did from your quote did. I consider Exploiting and scamming as two sides of a coin tbh. Let's say A is the creator and B is the user, Exploit is when B takes advantage of whatever mistakes A made, intentionally. Scamming, on the other hand, could be said to be A taking advantage of B. Some examples could include making fake sites and taking advantage of the ignorance of B, they scam their money.

They both are basically the same in the essence of taking advantage of others, but the medium behind that advantage is different. Exploits take advantage of "mistakes" while scamming takes advantage of "ignorance". You can argue that mistakes and ignorance are the same, but ignorance only becomes a mistake once you know about it. If you were ignorant beforehand, it isn't a mistake, but rather ignorance.

Still, Scenarios may vary based on the situation by situation, just like what @20kevin20, it isn't wrong to call it subjective. Most often than not, those that lost something are the ones considered as "victims" and those that got something out of it are considered as the "bad guys", but there are cases that are not as such. What if both ignorance and mistake were filled in both of their cases? A made a "mistake" and B was "ignorant" of the mistake of A, who's at fault? The matter of ignorance is purely subjective though, so it may come off as B probably lying, but who the hell can tell us that right?

Indeed it is a very subjective thing since this scenario cannot be called a scam.  It is under the boundary of exploitation. Since one of the definitions of scam is taking advantage of trust or ignorance of a person and steal from them for personal gain^[1].  I do not see any trust issue in this scenario.   

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[1] https://support.gamigo.com/hc/en-us/articles/204183367-ArcheAge-Scamming-And-Exploiting

I am surprised by this answer, since I find this at the very least immoral. The difference between 2) and 3) is not that big on paper imo, and for 3) you clearly say "scam". You said:


....but if you can parlay 1X2 and AHC, I don't think you can assume "misknowledge or else" and thus it must be software issue (by human error, i.e. this being allowed to be parley'd). If it's really misknowledge, then that bookie should look for new personnel maybe Probably this is a bit apples and oranges with slots/betting though (?). Or I am not familiar enough with slots.

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If a bookie cancels a 2.00, when it's 1.80-ish everywhere else after a drop, then it's the bookie scamming imo. As you say, it's their fault and they should just take it on the chin and try to improve. I had information advantage and they can't punish me for that.
Even the 2.00 (that goes down to 1.40 in other places), I wouldn't expect to get cancelled, unless you put huge amounts on it. Did you experience these bets getting cancelled regularly ?

No. I will skip.

It's borderline. Bookie being slow is not my fault. Yet, the bookie will then cancel the bet anyway.




I would take it.

I'm betting on an outcome on the odds given by the bookie.





Is it ok to take advantage of this software issue in general ? For $20 ? For $500k ? (Leave aside the fact, that LAngel played with "cheated" money).[/quote]

I love exploiting everything 'within the conditions'.
If the conditions are set in my favor due misknowledge or else, it's not my problem.

Here we are talking about crossing the line and doing a pure scam.

I will pass 100%.




(note: talking about self-regulated markets like EtherDelta, Betfair, etc.)

I'm using bots (self-coded) for 90%+ of my bets and trading.

I have been on both sides - losing 3x10ETH in a matter of minutes because of my coding errors and placing orders on obsolete contracts, through many other errors, to bot explicitly made to catch errors in the market.

Nope, they are not scammers.

The market is not there to guard you. The market is there for opportunities - on both sides.

If X doesn't fill it, Y will - the (self-regulated) market is never forgiving in these situations. Both X or Y could be just better-programmed bots, not people trying to 'steal' from you.
 

There have been instances where people have missed/misplaced a zero (or multiple zeros) and got wrecked because of it, so it's not necessarily something to happen only in naked markets.

I don't think you can blame someone for exploiting/scamming you because you have missed a zero though. That's like buying a lambo or a house from someone for 10x cheaper and being blamed for exploiting/scamming that person. You listed the coin, I wanted it. What should I be blamed for?

There's a quite big difference between purchasing something cheaper than it was supposed to be and finding a website bug/glitch & using it to take money that isn't yours out of a website.

Good post @20kevin20.


It definitely is, thats why it's interesting to hear different opinions while I am myself are still struggling with this topic. I didn't completely make my mind up yet regarding this matter.

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I don't think I agree with this. ETH is probably a bad example, since even when you click the sell button for $25, you will get matched higher, unless you have gazillions of ETH and can bring the price down to $25 with it.
But lets assume there is a "naked" market in an exchange for ETH. The price everywhere else is $250 and my bot puts up ETH to sell for $25 in this naked market, because I missed a zero there maybe. Would you buy them ? According to first quote, you are exploiting/scamming (me), since you "consciously take advantage" of an obvious mistake - whether it's software based or manual misclick doesn't matter here imo. According to second quote, it's my fault and ok to buy them.

In both cases there is a software issue, but different entities.

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You can for example bet on a home win in football in different manners. You can play the "1" for home win or AHC -0.5 - both are the same. If odds are 2.00 for both and you are able to parlay them, you will get 2.00 x 2.00 = 4.00 odds.

It's a very subjective thing.

In my opinion, this is not a scam nor can it necessarily be called exploiting unless you know it's a software issue and are intentionally using it to your own advantage instead of contacting the casino about it. I don't think it'd be right for me to call you a criminal for doing something you had no idea of.

If Amazon lists a $1k item for $10 by mistake, it's not my fault for ordering it. In fact, Amazon has had such glitches before and admitted it was their mistake, proceeding with the delivery of the very cheap items. So in this case, it is the casino's fault.

I believe this is exploiting, although I am not 100% sure what this scenario is about.

No. Consciously taking advantage of a software issue is exploiting and scamming at the same time.


It's your fault. The buyers have no idea whether you wanted to sell your funds cheap or not and it's not their fault that you have misprogrammed that thing. Take it from another perspective: You go to an exchange and accidentally sell your ETH at $25 instead of $250. You clicked that Sell button yourself - is it your fault or is it those who bought your ETH so cheap to blame?

An exploit begins when you consciously take advantage of something at one point and the scam begins when that "something" starts turning into a loss from your actions. Example: say Facebook has a limit of liking 100 posts per hour. You somehow manage to get unlimited likes and like 10k for 10 hours straight.

Facebook's servers are very strong and could handle your actions, but what if you find a glitch in a casino and can withdraw as much money as you want from it without having to deposit, so you take advantage of it and start withdrawing thousands of USD that isn't yours? The casino will start losing money because of you. That's scamming.

I guess everyone is aware of the Bitcasino incident, which was also discussed afterwards in this thread. This is a topic that I thought about a lot in the past and which is super interesting, with even philosophical tendencies. And I guess it's a hot topic, with lots of different opinions and emotions.

I will stick with exploiting vs scamming here to make it easier. There is probably a fine line between these two phrases, but there is also exploiting and exploiting, scamming and scamming.

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1) Lets start with a simple example, a football match, which is offered by every bookmaker you can imagine. There is breaking news, that team A will miss a lot of their players due to a flu. Odds are dropping like crazy in all bookmakers, but there is one bookmaker that is slow and has bad software. While all bookmakers only offer 1.40-ish for team B anymore, that bookmaker still has the initial 2.00 for them. Is it ok to bet on this 2.00 ? What if a bookmaker is constantly slow with adjusting odds and you could regularly do it ? Not for 2.00 -> 1.40, but maybe 2.00 -> 1.80.

2) By accident you discover that a bookmaker allows to parlay 1X2 and Asian Handicap market, which is of course a software issue. So you could parlay home win with AHC -0.5 for all kind of matches, which will give you good value odds. Is it ok to parlay these two dependant bets ?

3) This is the quote from user LAngel from that thread above (can't quote properly, because thread is locked)


Is it ok to take advantage of this software issue in general ? For $20 ? For $500k ? (Leave aside the fact, that LAngel played with "cheated" money).

4) Lets say I have a trading bot (in betting or crypto exchange) and this bot goes wild due to misprogramming and I lose loads of money. Are all these users filling my orders scammers, when it's obvious that these prices are wrong ?

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What of the above is an exploit and what is a scam ? Where does an exploit start and a scam begin ? Are you clever or a cheater when doing this ? Is it more ok to do it for $10 than for $10,000 or $1.5mln like LAngel did ? Is it more ok to do it with a supposedly rich casino/bookmaker ?

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And what about fixed matches ? These matches do exist, every day there is match fixing, but most of the time we gladly don't know or aren't aware. If you (get to) know about a fixed match and bet on it, does that make you a scammer/cheater ?

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Gambling is a (most of the time unfair) competition in the end. Should the "software factor" be completely called immoral and unethical behaviour, when you take advantage of it ? If there is a line for you, where is it ?

There is way more to this discussion imo, but I will leave this as a start and we can work out more as this thread evolves (hopefully).

I made this thread self-moderated, because these kind of threads unfortunately get spammy very fast, with a lot of users just repeating things over and over.