The average joe would never accept bitcoin as means of payment due to tx fees - page 7.

Ultegra134

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Quote from: Stalker22 on May 22, 2022, 05:51:29 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

The key problem is TX fees, as long there is a fee to pay, it will not be attractive to the avg user. Why not use cash or card where there is no fees?

As others have already pointed out, there is no card without a transaction fee, no matter who pays for it. And as for cash, can you recommend the best way to accept cash at an online store or for online services?
And, by the way, I consider myself an average user and bitcoin is very attractive to me.

Card payments also have excessive fees, but they don't directly burden the consumers, since it falls on the vendors. However, to be honest I've found Bitcoin's fees excessive at times, especially during periods of bull market. For instance, back in December 2020, I had to pay a $25 fee for a 0.03 BTC transaction.

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 22, 2022, 06:13:50 AM

Quote from: hZti on May 22, 2022, 05:24:18 AM

So maybe you don't pay that fee but you will also wait for a quiete long time or when the network is crowded can't get a confirmation at all.

Yes, but once the RBF-disabled transaction is broadcasted, you can't take it back. If the merchant wants to speed up the confirmation, he can pay the parent with a higher fee. Still, the fees he'll have to pay in bitcoin are less than with credit cards and other third parties.

There are ways to take it back, like double spend with a high fee or it will be thrown out of the mempool after some time if the fee is to low.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: hZti on May 22, 2022, 05:24:18 AM

Also many mobile wallets don't even support it.

The good ones do.

Quote from: hZti on May 22, 2022, 05:24:18 AM

So maybe you don't pay that fee but you will also wait for a quiete long time or when the network is crowded can't get a confirmation at all.

Yes, but once the RBF-disabled transaction is broadcasted, you can't take it back. If the merchant wants to speed up the confirmation, he can pay the parent with a higher fee. Still, the fees he'll have to pay in bitcoin are less than with credit cards and other third parties.

Stalker22

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Quote from: ?? on ??

The key problem is TX fees, as long there is a fee to pay, it will not be attractive to the avg user. Why not use cash or card where there is no fees?

As others have already pointed out, there is no card without a transaction fee, no matter who pays for it. And as for cash, can you recommend the best way to accept cash at an online store or for online services?
And, by the way, I consider myself an average user and bitcoin is very attractive to me.

hZti

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on May 22, 2022, 05:12:52 AM

Quote from: hZti on May 22, 2022, 04:55:40 AM

I think many people forget how often they use fiat money in their daily life.

Again, it depends on the amounts. I don't do 5 transactions everyday, but when I do, they're micro-transactions and can be accomplished with Lightning as well, with nearly zero fees. For amounts greater than $50, I use bitcoin on-chain. I also don't pay $0.80 for each of my transactions. Last time, I paid 300 sats which is about 9 cents. I must have never given more than $1 in a transaction.

Yes they can be accomplished with lighting if you are educated about it. Also many mobile wallets don't even support it.

For the fee of 0.8 USD: Currently the network is not crowded at all, still the average fee per transaction is 0.5 USD. So maybe you don't pay that fee but you will also wait for a quiete long time or when the network is crowded can't get a confirmation at all. This is again a problem as you would have to wait for a few hours in a store to be able to leave with whatever you bought. For example the transaction to the address in my signature took several days to be confirmed with a fee of 288 sats and the current network load. And this is always considering your transaction is not based on many micro transactions like here https://mempool.space/de/tx/b2a01dc1111c2ff2b327774498bdd21dda29f5bc4a69c784bb96ef1ce9d37f0d where a fee of more then 600 USD had to be payed.

jrrsparkles

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So you think that those poor people who you are talking about can afford the hidden fees of banks? Banks offers everything for free but this is only for rich but for an average joe who have to keep certain amount as minimum deposit, debit/credit card annual fees and while transacting overseas imagine how much fees the banks are taking form the average joe?

So while comparing all these I don't mind paying few cents for every transactions assuming the transaction contains 1 input and 1 output.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: hZti on May 22, 2022, 04:55:40 AM

I think many people forget how often they use fiat money in their daily life.

Again, it depends on the amounts. I don't do 5 transactions everyday, but when I do, they're micro-transactions and can be accomplished with Lightning as well, with nearly zero fees. For amounts greater than $50, I use bitcoin on-chain. I also don't pay $0.80 for each of my transactions. Last time, I paid 300 sats which is about 9 cents. I must have never given more than $1 in a transaction.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Why not use cash or card where there is no fees?

Lol? Have you ever accepted cash or card as a business? Card transactions generally levy a fee of around 3% per transaction, which is far higher than what most bitcoin transactions charge. And yes, a customer handing you cash might not cost you anything right there, but at some point you need to get that cash in to your bank account. Forgetting for a second the direct costs of securely transferring large amounts of cash to a bank for it to be counted, then business bank accounts also charge a variety of fees including monthly fees, deposit fees, cash counting fees, transfer fees, and so on, depending on your country and the exact type of business account you have.

Just because the consumer doesn't see the fees does not mean they aren't there and they aren't substantial. And the consumer ends up paying these fees, as reflected by higher prices on goods and services. In contrast, it is significantly cheaper all round paying 5 cents for a bitcoin transaction which is received directly in to the merchant's wallet and they can do whatever they want with it without getting hit by a bunch of third party fees.

And let's not even touch on things like currency exchange fees or international transfer fees.

hZti

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I think many people forget how often they use fiat money in their daily life. If you make an average of 5 transactions per day at around 0.8 USD fees this is: 5*0.8*30=120 USD just in fees per month. This is by no means acceptable or usable for 99% of people.

Ziskinberg

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That's correct, it's more like a store of value because fiat is still better than bitcoin when it comes to transactions. However, with its anonymity, people will choose crypto over fiat, and the fact that you can bring crypto anywhere in the world, you have the advantage when you love to travel as you can easily convert it to cash with bitcoin or crypto ATMs.

Jating

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On the contrary, I think average joe might think that bitcoin might be a good option for them. And I don't think that fees will be a big hindrance. What if there are countries that will accept bitcoin as legal tender in the future? We have one right now and it could have a domino effect and those average joe will have to used bitcoin. And this is not the first time that we have heard this kind of argument against bitcoin and yet it continue to flourished and mostly those average joe are using it.

slaman29

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What you believe doesn't sync with what's happening, though.

I'm an average joe, and living in Asia, so those fees are about 4 to 5 times more here in terms of spending value than to most of Europe I guess and still I'm okay with the fees.

Okay there were times it was ridiculous but now 1 satoshi per byte equates to a few cents not even 10 cents. I'd pay that anytime for something that's valuable, can be used in so many places I couldn't access without BTC. And secure and won't go to zero like some dumb stablecoin.

BlackHatCoiner

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Quote from: ajaxtempest on May 22, 2022, 01:49:48 AM

If each and every single transaction is levied fees, then people wont spend as much as they spend with cash.

Depends on what you're buying. If you've fulled the supermarket trolley, then an extra $0.10 - $0.50 isn't going to harm much. I agree that for micro-transactions, cash is instant and transactions are settled without fees. This is why we have Lightning.

Quote from: ajaxtempest on May 22, 2022, 01:49:48 AM

The so called lightning network defense is not prudent as in lightning network the sellers ids is being broadcasted to everyone.

What's "sellers ids"?

Quote from: hZti on May 22, 2022, 02:06:26 AM

In my option the fact that you have to wait 30-40 min for verification is even more important than the fees.

But, you don't have to. If you opt-out RBF, it's realistically impossible to double-spend. Only if you bribe a miner, you increase your chances of having it replaced by another transaction. For weekly transactions, wherein you pay $100 - $500 to the supermarket, it's fine to accept unconfirmed transactions.

Even with 1 sat/vbyte, it's very improbably to not be confirmed within 2 weeks, which is the default time required to dump it from the mempool.

Fortify

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Quote from: ajaxtempest on May 22, 2022, 01:49:48 AM

I believe that transaction fees and losing your wallet or getting hacked and not receiving any reimbursement is a serious archilies heel preventing mass adoption for bitcoin.

In many poor countries people use cash as means of payment and no extra fees is levied. If each and every single transaction is levied fees, then people wont spend as much as they spend with cash. I mean if you even transfer from one wallet to another you are leived fees.

The so called lightning network defense is not prudent as in lightning network the sellers ids is being broadcasted to everyone.

bitcoin will only be like gold aka store of value.

Over time Bitcoin fees have come down, as they used to cost a much bigger chunk of every transaction. What you need to do is compare the fees to the existing payment networks and determine how the transaction fees stack up. If you look at things like Visa and Paypal, you are looking at a 3% ish fee and it does seem possible for Bitcoin to get below this at some point if the developers and network continue to make improvements. However I think the real obstacle to adoption, at least via individually controlled wallets, is going to be how long it takes for transactions to be processed. Nobody is going to want to wait around for a long time in a shop as transactions confirm, you can avoid this through an exchange like Coinbase, but then you're just relying on a third party again so might as well stick with existing providers outside of crypto.

Apocollapse

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You're correct if it's an average joe since they're don't really understand about Bitcoin, most of average joe still using legacy address, using wallet with bad fees estimator or even hold their coins on exchanges. As we know how ridiculous exchange charge the fees.

If you're using segwit address and doesn't have a lot input and output, you only pay less than $1 for each transactions, it's cheap. However if you use lightning network, you only pay for few cents.

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I do not believe that it will be used as a means of payment in a generalized way because of Gresham's Law, which is not a lucubration or abstract law but derives from the observation that when citizens have a good currency (such as gold in ancient times, or Bitcoin today) and a bad one (such as the currencies issued by states and central banks), citizens tend to keep the good one, to save it, and to spend the bad one.

If I have to pay for something, it is more logical to pay for it in a currency that will be worth less in a year and keep the other one that will be worth more in a year.

TheNineClub

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Quote from: ajaxtempest on May 22, 2022, 01:49:48 AM

I believe that transaction fees and losing your wallet or getting hacked and not receiving any reimbursement is a serious archilies heel preventing mass adoption for bitcoin.

In many poor countries people use cash as means of payment and no extra fees is levied. If each and every single transaction is levied fees, then people wont spend as much as they spend with cash. I mean if you even transfer from one wallet to another you are leived fees.

The so called lightning network defense is not prudent as in lightning network the sellers ids is being broadcasted to everyone.

bitcoin will only be like gold aka store of value.

That's definitely something BTC will have to, and ETH is trying to resolve, and honestly, if it doesn't get resolved then it could jeopardize cryptos' future. It's one of those things that need to be addressed for crypto to step to the next level of adoption and value. As you mentioned, it's still not that applicable for the average person and if it's not, then the price might not be what we think it might be, and then the store of value thing comes into question...

raidarksword

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I don't think transaction fees are the burden for making bitcoin as legal tender of payment system in fact El Salvador citizens embraced bitcoin and used it for their payment as for daily basis usage. Still bitcoin is the biggest solution for inflation and this will be the biggest factor for bitcoin to be adopted world wide.

Tytanowy Janusz

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Quote from: ajaxtempest on May 22, 2022, 02:33:59 AM

you will get $250000 if the bank fails. How much you will get if btc fails or your hardware\non custodial wallet is hacked or lost?

Those are money if bank fails not user hack. I was talking about situation in which your phone/pc was hacked and hacker get access to your bank account and stole your money. Most likely you will get zero. Same with lost wallet full of cash.

Quote from: ajaxtempest on May 22, 2022, 02:33:59 AM

The key problem is TX fees, as long there is a fee to pay, it will not be attractive to the avg user. Why not use cash or card where there is no fees?

With fiat money there is not TX fee. you right. But there is 5-20% "inflation fee" annually.

ajaxtempest

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Quote from: Tytanowy Janusz on May 22, 2022, 02:19:25 AM

Quote from: ajaxtempest on May 22, 2022, 01:49:48 AM

The average joe would never accept bitcoin as means of payment due to tx fees

Tell that to El Salvador citizens that use bitcoin as legal tender for everyday paymants by crypto wallet with build in lightining network.

Whats the percentage of el savadorians using btc over cash?
https://www.pymnts.com/blockchain/bitcoin/2021/poll-shows-70-pct-of-salvadorans-are-anti-bitcoin/
https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2022/study-finds-el-salvadors-bitcoin-as-currency-experiment-costly-failing/

Quote from: ajaxtempest on May 22, 2022, 01:49:48 AM

I believe that transaction fees and losing your wallet or getting hacked and not receiving any reimbursement

Tell me how big reimbursement you will get after loosing your wallet full of paper cash. Or how big reimbursement average joe would get after his bank account hack.

[/quote]
you will get $250000 if the bank fails. How much you will get if btc fails or your hardware\non custodial wallet is hacked or lost?

Bitcoin might have utopian and idealistic ambitions but unless it can solve sending and buying btc without fees and restoring lost\hacking coins, it will never be used as commonly as cash.

Bitcoin might force govts to go back to gold standard but to replace all currencies is a fools dream.

lightning network is not private as thought to be!
https://en.cryptonomist.ch/2021/11/06/lightning-network-privacy-really-that-private/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89GJH4PgG6M

Quote from: Kemarit on May 22, 2022, 02:22:42 AM

Quote from: ajaxtempest on May 22, 2022, 01:49:48 AM

I believe that transaction fees and losing your wallet or getting hacked and not receiving any reimbursement is a serious archilies heel preventing mass adoption for bitcoin.

In many poor countries people use cash as means of payment and no extra fees is levied. If each and every single transaction is levied fees, then people wont spend as much as they spend with cash. I mean if you even transfer from one wallet to another you are leived fees.

The so called lightning network defense is not prudent as in lightning network the sellers ids is being broadcasted to everyone.

bitcoin will only be like gold aka store of value.

Have you used Bitcoin though?

Transaction fees are very cheap right now, as compare to previous years, Segwit might be one reason why the fees are getting cheaper.

I guess you have to look at LN here; https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-beginners-guideline-to-bitcoin-lightning-network-5202798 and https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-lightning-network-faq-5158920.

since 2011

The key problem is TX fees, as long there is a fee to pay, it will not be attractive to the avg user. Why not use cash or card where there is no fees?

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