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Topic: The Barry Silbert segwit2x agreement with >80% miner support. - page 26. (Read 120029 times)

legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
however, if gmaxwell tells us that it "rejects its own blocks" because they are smaller than 1 MB, one would think that it DOES implement a lower block size limit).

Well, yes. But gmaxwell has a way of speaking whereby he says one thing, while building the impression in the reader's mind that he is saying something different altogether.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1028
In a couple of years we will have lightning network....
* ComputerGenie hopes that in a couple of years everyone will finally understand that LN isn't part of Bitcoin, that LN doesn't serve the needs or uses of the vast majority of Bitcoin users, and that LN isn't part of Bitcoin.  Undecided

How do you know what the vast majority of bitcoin users want? Speak for yourself.

What the majority of bitcoiners sure don't want is piece of shit software rushed in a couple of months to hardfork bitcoin into two coins collapsing the price, that is what they don't want.

People that have a lot of money invested in bitcoin and therefore got the most skin in the game, do NOT want this stupid hardfork nonsense.

I couldn't care less about segwit, LN or anything else, bitcoin must not fork into two bitcoins, and big holders will not allow this.

Nobody holding big amounts wants a centralized network with big blocks. Bitcoin as store of value > Bitcoin as Paypal 2.0. In order for Bitcoin to stay a store of value, it must have a decentralized network, not a network run by a couple corporations.

No amount of fake spam and FUD will fork Bitcoin, the sooner you understand this reality the better.
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 1038
If Core forks to Daggerhashimoto on the 1st the mining consortium will just go away. There's enough hashing power to secure the network ready and waiting...
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Or are you saying that exchanges and users simply won't use segwit transactions?

^^^ pretty much this.

Note that segwit transactions, for all their 'benefits', also implement a different security model than Bitcoin transactions. A weaker one. I'll not be accepting segwit transactions. At least not if I can help it.
sr. member
Activity: 276
Merit: 254
The mempool has nothing to do with it. It doesn't matter how many transactions there are, the current segwit2x code has a default block size limit of 750kB and there are no plans to change it. Miners using the default settings will (and did) refuse to mine the required >1MB block, causing the fork chain to freeze completely.

Default block size limit of 750kB is the default Core setting. Obviously miners on live chain do not use such default Core setting. There are not plans to change it because all miners on live chain are familiar with setting it to mine blocks larger than 750kB already  Wink
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
But Roger told me Garzik has code in billions of devices Huh Cheesy

True story. Every contemporary Linux install that employs ATA (maybe 95+% of all currently running Linux systems) is absolutely dependent on his code.
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
LN is not a solution, or even part of a solution; LN is a companion service, period.  Wink
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
In a couple of years lot of LN fan boys will hate LN because they've lost a lot of money and will say we were not properly warnded that on-chain is by millions more safe than off-chain...
Don't get me wrong, I am pro-LN (in the use-cases that it's actually designed for); I'm just also in favor of people understanding that LN is "part of" Bitcoin the the exact say way that their pretty pink piggy-bank is "part of" the US Treasury Dept.

Don't get me wrong either - I'm just very very worried of comparing these two solutions at all because security is by factor of some petahashes and multimillon$ investments different -
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1688
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
Obviously there will be attackers when Segwit2x is deployed.

While that seems likely, how likely is it that the attackers will be able to throw sufficient hashpower at the entire Bitcoin network in order to successfully mine 6000 blocks in 24 hours - including the intervening difficulty adjustments?

If this is in any way remotely possible, then Bitcoin is already irreparably hosed.
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
In a couple of years lot of LN fan boys will hate LN because they've lost a lot of money and will say we were not properly warnded that on-chain is by millions more safe than off-chain...
Don't get me wrong, I am pro-LN (in the use-cases that it's actually designed for); I'm just also in favor of people understanding that LN is "part of" Bitcoin the the exact say way that their pretty pink piggy-bank is "part of" the US Treasury Dept.
legendary
Activity: 3276
Merit: 2442
If you are ready to accept the hard truth about big blocks and why they aren't the solution; If you want to know why miners are such losers and they always make the wrong choices, why segwit2x is not the way to go, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFJ2MZ3KciQ

Watch especially the guy who's lying on a sofa. He actually has a common sense! (which is actually not that common nowadays)
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
In a couple of years we will have lightning network....
* ComputerGenie hopes that in a couple of years everyone will finally understand that LN isn't part of Bitcoin, that LN doesn't serve the needs or uses of the vast majority of Bitcoin users, and that LN isn't part of Bitcoin.  Undecided

In a couple of years lot of LN fan boys will hate LN because they've lost a lot of money and will say we were not properly warnded that on-chain is by millions more safe than off-chain...
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
In a couple of years we will have lightning network....
* ComputerGenie hopes that in a couple of years everyone will finally understand that LN isn't part of Bitcoin, that LN doesn't serve the needs or uses of the vast majority of Bitcoin users, and that LN isn't part of Bitcoin.  Undecided
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1028
What growth? Look at the mempool, most of the time it's far from full. Transactions are cheap. It's only when the mempool gets spammed out of nowhere that people cry about bitcoin. Ver and co spam the network to get the big block narrative going and confuse noobs into thinking increase the blocksize is a must now or else we'll die. Bollocks.

Still not a bad thing to go the 2 MB blocks even if currently 1 MB would be sufficient.

In a couple of years it will not be and then we have double the headroom.

In a couple of years we will have lightning network, and if we REALLY need 2MB, we will do it without less risk AND with a lot of other cool things that could be implemented with a hardfork. You are supposed to get maximum consensus in a hardfork and you are supposed to get as much interesting stuff as possible to avoid needing further hardforks.

Hardforking in a matter of a couple of months with software that is clearly not up to bitcoin standards is suicidal and not logical by any means.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
The only thing worse than me finding out I was wrong about 1st vs successive blocks is reading the dumb shit people write whilst trying to justify what I was wrong about.  Undecided

Well, once it is out of the bottle, whether somewhere implemented in one or other toy version of bitcoin doesn't matter: the idea of MINIMUM block size to impose a clean bilateral hard fork over block size is a very smart idea.  Whether it is done by segwit2x or not, doesn't really matter now.  They SHOULD do it.

(however, if gmaxwell tells us that it "rejects its own blocks" because they are smaller than 1 MB, one would think that it DOES implement a lower block size limit).

In any case, the thing with block size limits is a fundamental design problem in bitcoin, due to its badly designed economic model, and its centralizing compensated PoW game theory.  All these discussions are just small fixes on what cannot be fixed fundamentally.
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
The only thing worse than me finding out I was wrong about 1st vs successive blocks is reading the dumb shit people write whilst trying to justify what I was wrong about.  Undecided
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Q: What's wrong with "dummy" transactions to make up the difference?
A: Nothing, as long as 2 years from now you're OK with wasting 2-8GB of HDD space just because some idiot decided there should be a "minimum sized block" and you're in favor of being in direct opposition to scaling.

Of course I'm OK with that.  Only the miner pool nodes and a few big players need to keep an integral copy, and for them, such an investment is not a problem.  All normal users can use light wallets. 

In fact, "when the blocks are full" and an upper bound is hindering the system, changing this former upper bound against which the demand is hitting, by a lower bound, is not going to waste much in the hypothesis of continued adoption.  If 1 MB blocks are most of the time full (they are), then requiring a 1 MB LOWER bound will only waste those few differences of those few smaller blocks than 1 MB (which are almost not there, otherwise the 1 MB limit wouldn't be a problem).

So the "wasted space" is limited by changing the former upper limit which became to small and should normally naturally be crossed by changing it into a lower bound.  But the nice thing is that the old and the new blocks are now fully incompatible, which is what is needed for a clean hard fork (bilateral incompatibility).

Quote
Q: What's wrong with waiting until the mempool supports the new block size minimum?
A: Let's suppose segwit reduces weight count by 30%. That means that it takes 30% more transactions to fill 1MB of space, compared to pre-segwit. That, also, means that when there aren't enough transactions to fill 1 block, that block will take 30% longer to fill and confirm.

As I said, no, because miners can fill them up artificially.  They won't be letting their expensive mining hardware sit idle 30% of the time, waiting for people to send transactions before they can START mining.  No, like now, from the moment there's a block found by a competitor on which they will build, they will make a legal block, with enough junk in it for it to be a legal >1MB block so that they are not wasting time NOT mining.

Quote
That further means that there would be 0 transactions left to start the next block and each successive block would take exponentially longer. This all means that, if segwit actually works, there could be times where there are 1 hour block times and 3 hours to confirm 6 blocks could become a regular thing. This is the diametric opposition to scaling.

No, not at all, because miners can put as much junk into a block as they wish.  They can make many fake transactions, even without fee, or by paying a fee to themselves.  Miners are never short of transactions if that's what they need.
They prefer of course juicy real transactions with nice big fees from other people, but if they just need to generate random transactions at no cost to be able to mine, they can always do so, unlimited.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Q: What's wrong with "dummy" transactions to make up the difference?
A: Nothing, as long as 2 years from now you're OK with wasting 2-8GB of HDD space just because some idiot decided there should be a "minimum sized block" and you're in favor of being in direct opposition to scaling.

Q: What's wrong with waiting until the mempool supports the new block size minimum?
A: Let's suppose segwit reduces weight count by 30%. That means that it takes 30% more transactions to fill 1MB of space, compared to pre-segwit. That, also, means that when there aren't enough transactions to fill 1 block, that block will take 30% longer to fill and confirm. That further means that there would be 0 transactions left to start the next block and each successive block would take exponentially longer. This all means that, if segwit actually works, there could be times where there are 1 hour block times and 3 hours to confirm 6 blocks could become a regular thing. This is the diametric opposition to scaling.

What about POW?

Win POW... waiting for over 1mb worth of txs... 12 minutes later... win POW. What will happen to the 2nd POW when the first has not yet been propagated to the network?
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
Wouldn't it be optimal for Core to publish a statement that Segwit2x is a terrible option which they are strongly opposed to, then list the reasons why...
Given that some literally responded/voted
Quote
LOL
good luck with that.
copper member
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1465
Clueless!
Wouldn't it be optimal for Core to publish a statement that Segwit2x is a terrible option which they are strongly opposed to, then list the reasons why.

But then state, given its' high probability of being implemented, they will work/do everything in their power to try make it usable & help with testing. If it fails, Core are still heroes for doing their best and if it works it may well be thanks to their efforts in this rushed testing phase & quick reactions when it's implemented.

I agree.  But unfortunately, with bad blood, no trust, and egos on both sides, I'm not holding my breath.
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