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Topic: The Barry Silbert segwit2x agreement with >80% miner support. - page 71. (Read 120033 times)

legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
If segwit is implemented without a blocksize increase. It won't ever happen.

segwit is a block size increase. Just to say... Tongue

The Core developers should not have "marketed" it that way. If they have not done that, I believe the miners might have activated Segwit. Segwit really is an upgrade to make the protocol better and more robust and it is all done under the safety of a soft fork. All the other proposals involving a hard fork should be studied more.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
Both camps have clearly already decided on central planning to dictate or coerce whether it's going to be on-chain or off-chain scaling and we seemingly have a binary choice between the two stupid extremes.  Neither wants to let the market choose freely and decide for itself how best to grow.  I'd argue that both sides are spineless cowards in this regard.

So, everyone should just make their own personalised Bitcoin, with exactly the rules and limits they want, "because decentralise all the things" ? Roll Eyes


Do it. I'm sure everyone will be accepting DooMADCoin and CarltonCoin without question, they'll audit our code themselves, just a quick 5 minute job before they trade with us for the first time ever, and they'll keep their "money" with all the other IndividualCoins thye get from everyone else.

Not sure what tangent you've wandered off on now, but the crux of the matter was that one camp clearly pressurises on-chain tx, mostly to the exclusion of all else, and the other camp pressurises off-chain tx, mostly to the exclusion of all else.  Neither camp wants to consider a healthy mix between the two.  Both are willing to herd and funnel users into their desired and preempted growth ideal by either providing potentially too much or potentially too little space, respectively.  This is the inherent problem with a static blocksize.  In the act of choosing in advance a maximum amount of space to allow, you're also deciding in advance how the growth will occur, rather than allowing demand to speak for itself.  SegWit 1MB vs SegWit 2MB are both stupid answers to the problem.  Make it variable.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 1142
Ιntergalactic Conciliator
Like somebody told at the end of Consensus meeting that debate will propably never end
I think Seagweet will be implementated but where are Core devs

they talk very loud with code. Segwit is their code.
Pab
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1012
Like somebody told at the end of Consensus meeting that debate will propably never end
I think Seagweet will be implementated but where are Core devs
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
...mr bitfinex has confirmed that he'll list the uasf bitcoin probably as an alt.
Unsourced on reddit, so it must be true.  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1087
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/6dbsn8/bitfinex_will_list_bip148_chain_after_uasf/

mr bitfinex has confirmed that he'll list the uasf bitcoin probably as an alt.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
I got a bad feeling about this.

Yeah... me too.... Just read about all that compatibility issues... and I can't sleep now. The last thing I want is something like Ethereum/Ethereum Classic Duo. We already have the altcoins such as Ripple and Dash to leech the Bitcoin users. I don't think that we need a "Bitcoin Classic" right now, which will create divisions among the Bitcoin enthusiasts.
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
segwit is a block size increase. Just to say... Tongue
That's like putting a fold-up cot in the bathroom of a 2 bedroom house and calling it a 3 bedroom house.  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 1142
Ιntergalactic Conciliator
If segwit is implemented without a blocksize increase. It won't ever happen.

segwit is a block size increase. Just to say... Tongue
sr. member
Activity: 546
Merit: 253
If segwit is implemented without a blocksize increase. It won't ever happen.
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
Something has to happen soon though, my Wife is waiting still for a transaction to come from an exchange for the last three days now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F12lpqnug-0
sr. member
Activity: 546
Merit: 253
so is this ASICBOOST proof then? if so, why did Bitmain agree?

And why was Core not invited?  Huh

Core was invited, they chose not to attend.
sr. member
Activity: 546
Merit: 253
I'm 100% certain that only 1 of the 2 of us is all on about Blockstream.  Roll Eyes
I'm 100% certain that you can't hear the facts when you plug your ears like that and look for something mundane like the repetition of a company's name to talk about.

Why not try responding to the points given? Afraid that it'll be uncomfortable to learn how wrong you are?
It's impossible to respond because it's only in your head that what you said has anything to do with what I said.
I said they are getting paid.
You went on about some "conspiracy theory" nonsense.
Frankly, I couldn't care less who is paying them (or even why). The fact is that anyone getting paid any amount to do something gives that person a motivation to keep that something relevant. Specifically, in this case, the fact that Core devs get paid is it's own incentive for Core devs to fight to keep Core going.

You are absolutely right. Loyalty to those who sign your paycheck pays a big role.
hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 504
Something has to happen soon though, my Wife is waiting still for a transaction to come from an exchange for the last three days now and even though she tried the viabtc accelerator it did not go through so this is very frustrating. So I am for Segwit if it is to make everything easier in evry day transactions.
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
...[logic]...[reason]...[understanding]...
Man, don't you know none of that sensible stuff has any place in an internet "debate"?  Tongue
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Both camps have clearly already decided on central planning to dictate or coerce whether it's going to be on-chain or off-chain scaling and we seemingly have a binary choice between the two stupid extremes.  Neither wants to let the market choose freely and decide for itself how best to grow.  I'd argue that both sides are spineless cowards in this regard.

So, everyone should just make their own personalised Bitcoin, with exactly the rules and limits they want, "because decentralise all the things" ? Roll Eyes


Do it. I'm sure everyone will be accepting DooMADCoin and CarltonCoin without question, they'll audit our code themselves, just a quick 5 minute job before they trade with us for the first time ever, and they'll keep their "money" with all the other IndividualCoins thye get from everyone else.


You're not very smart for someone who tries to behave like they're relevant in this debate. The market can choose what it wants, and a good standard, whether it's money or any other economic good, is something the market frequently settles on, however long that standard lasts for. And standards are, wait for it.......... inherently centralised, by definition.

Bitcoin is a paradox, a centralised standard for decentralising money. Cry onto your Ayn Rand pillowcases, why don't ya Grin

As you say, everyone can launch a coin.  Bitcoin is not different.  A guy calling himself Satoshi on the internet launched it.  The entity that launches a coin is of course a centralized entity.  However, once it is launched, if the dynamics of the system is such that it decentralizes (hint: most of them don't, including bitcoin) sufficiently, which means that nobody can find any majority collusion over any agreement that deviates from "sticking to the rules", then these rules should remain in place by the very dynamics of the system.  This emergent property has a name: immutability.

Immutability is the fact that game-theoretically, none of the participating entities can find an advantage in deviating from continuing to apply the rules of the system as it stands.  In other words, the system started out as a centralized one with a given rule set, other entities joined.  These other entities could only join initially if they played by the rules of the central authority.  Each new entity that joined, could only join by "playing by the rules".  After a while, there were so many different entities, that the original central authority lost its "majority" and couldn't, on his own, change anything any more.  

Moreover, the idea is that a well-designed crypto currency is such that the original rule set is a Nash equilibrium.  That is, no single entity can deviate from his strategy to continue to follow the rules if all the others keep following the rules.  The whole idea of a *decentralized* system is that entities have to take their decisions of strategy alone, and cannot collude.  If they can sit together in a room and negociate something, it is centralized.  If there is a (moral?) authority that can dictate change (Satoshi ?  Core ?), then it is a centralized entity. A truly decentralized system has a Nash equilibrium on the actual rule set, and *simply cannot deviate from it*.  That property is "immutability".

Bitcoin, until recently, was centralized on Core's moral authority ; the low number of mining pools is shifting this to another central control: the "cartel of the miners" if ever they can sit in a room and come to agreements.  Cartel formation is the only way to leave a Nash equilibrium in a decentralized system, which, by definition, becomes centralized on that cartel then.

If bitcoin is truly decentralized, it cannot change its protocol any more (for instance, the block size).

The *only* way, in that case, to propose a modification, is to make a hard fork and hence, a new coin.  That can be done by just any entity.
And the game starts all over: the forker is the central authority fixing the new rules on the new coin.  If enough entities join, this new rule set will become immutable too, unless a cartel forms and the thing centralizes again.  Or someone else forks off.


legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Both camps have clearly already decided on central planning to dictate or coerce whether it's going to be on-chain or off-chain scaling and we seemingly have a binary choice between the two stupid extremes.  Neither wants to let the market choose freely and decide for itself how best to grow.  I'd argue that both sides are spineless cowards in this regard.

So, everyone should just make their own personalised Bitcoin, with exactly the rules and limits they want, "because decentralise all the things" ? Roll Eyes


Do it. I'm sure everyone will be accepting DooMADCoin and CarltonCoin without question, they'll audit our code themselves, just a quick 5 minute job before they trade with us for the first time ever, and they'll keep their "money" with all the other IndividualCoins thye get from everyone else.


You're not very smart for someone who tries to behave like they're relevant in this debate. The market can choose what it wants, and a good standard, whether it's money or any other economic good, is something the market frequently settles on, however long that standard lasts for. And standards are, wait for it.......... inherently centralised, by definition.

Bitcoin is a paradox, a centralised standard for decentralising money. Cry onto your Ayn Rand pillowcases, why don't ya Grin
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
Funnily enough, i believe the whole plan is to create an altcoin bull pump and dump, so certain parties make more BTC from the suckers.
Well, if that's the plan, then it seems to be a success. Since many alts aren't taking their normal inverse dive, I'm certain that more than a few miners are happy to have the 4:1 income increase over mining bitcoin.  Shocked
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1001
Crypto-News.net: News from Crypto World
Does anyone else think this could have been nothing more then just a PR stunt, to pump bitcoin?
I mean they can't really think will fall for this this crap can they?
I think this was ment to target investors not the bitcoin user base.
This has to be some PR bullshit to get VC money.

It is possible that it is PR but i must add pretty good one with to good background story.
And most likely it it to target investors in this, no wonder that price went so high just this month.

legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
I believe what this plan is all about is to divide and rule, there is no sense in not involving Core developers, you want to implement Segwit that was developed by Core without carrying them along. It is a frustrating thing to see your transaction not been moved for 24hrs but this agreement is a perfect disagreement

Funnily enough, i believe the whole plan is to create an altcoin bull pump and dump, so certain parties make more BTC from the suckers.
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